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5NL 6max - QQ vs 30/20/4.8 Flop Raise after limp.

  
 
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amifat
Old 02-10-2009, 04:20 AM     Post subject: 5NL 6max - QQ vs 30/20/4.8 Flop Raise after limp. #1 (permalink)  
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Villian 30/20/4.8 after like 70 hands, not a big sample but i have to go with what i have.

- My Experience with Micros, that this is a strong line, yet he has so much in his range.
- We are OOP that hurts, what to do, and he has such a wide range that im confused on what to do.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG shanerp ($2.42)
CO Hero ($10.11)
BTN jorgebalca ($5.60)
SB mcsassy_99 ($10.01)
BB wayneg420 ($8.97)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is CO
shanerp calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, jorgebalca calls $0.20, 2 folds, shanerp calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.67, 3 players)
shanerp checks, Hero bets $0.60, jorgebalca raises to $1.40, shanerp folds, $0.80 to Hero ($9.31)?
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xX zorrito Xx
Old 02-10-2009, 04:24 AM #2 (permalink)  
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his raise is rather weak... i'm re bumb the shiet outta it....
 
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Stacks
Old 02-10-2009, 04:45 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
his raise is rather weak... i'm re bumb the shiet outta it....
So your 3betting the flop with QQ because you think he is weak? What's your reasoning behind this?
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-10-2009, 04:55 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Shouldn't we be going into check/call mode with the intention of possibly folding on a later street if it becomes more obvious our hand is beat?

3-betting does nothing but narrow our villians continuing range here and if he is bluffy at all when in position on dry flops we at least want him to continue with the weak portion of his range rather than folding anything weak to a 3-bet and only continuing with the part of his range in which you are behind to. It just seems like a thin spot to get the chips in but that could just be the nit in me talking.

Stacks: does it sound like I'm on the right track here? These spots have been iffy for me as well. I tend to push back at the wrong times and fold when I feel I shouldn't have.
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Illfavor
Old 02-10-2009, 05:00 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 If we think he's weak, pushing him around with our e-dick isn't going to help anything I don't think, zorrito.
Ich grolle nicht...
 
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Stacks
Old 02-10-2009, 05:08 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 I'm going to refrain from commenting on this hand for now, because honestly this is a spot that I feel I do not play all that well. I am always stumped in this sort of spot.

Later today if I get motivated enough I'll try to do some range analysis and see if I can't come to some sort of decision that will maybe help me in these spots in the future. If it isn't a fail, I will obv post it.
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Old 02-10-2009, 05:27 AM #7 (permalink)  
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alright i was at work when i replied to this one so now that i look at it closer lemme give a better reasoning...

limp/call preflop makes me put him on a pocket pair or some kind of suited connector...

i will also through in AXs at this level...

this would put you ahead on a lot of ranges that villain would be making this kind of play with... i think he has some kinda smaller mid pair... 77, 55, a pair on the board with a gutty... tptk... the only thing i'm reallly worried about here is a set...

at this point of the hand i'm very confident that i'm ahead of most of his range...

if i call here, a lot of cards could come on the turn that would make me muck my hand especially being oop and you know he's going to be betting after the turn is checked...

i really don't wanna be sitting there trying to make a decision if there's 4 to a straight on the board... or an ace or king come... in my experiences the players at this level don't really look at the flop as far a possible hands so they just kinda play their own hands as they are... he could be betting top pair again on turn just as easily as if he could be betting a turned straight... i really don't like being put in that situation....

chances are villain thinks you are c-betting with air and is check raising with a pocket pair for fold equity...

someone correct me if needed...
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-10-2009, 05:38 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 Villian has position on us. He never limp called. Rather than a check raise it's just a raise.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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amifat
Old 02-10-2009, 05:39 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
alright i was at work when i replied to this one so now that i look at it closer lemme give a better reasoning...

limp/call preflop makes me put him on a pocket pair or some kind of suited connector...

i will also through in AXs at this level...

this would put you ahead on a lot of ranges that villain would be making this kind of play with... i think he has some kinda smaller mid pair... 77, 55, a pair on the board with a gutty... tptk... the only thing i'm reallly worried about here is a set...

at this point of the hand i'm very confident that i'm ahead of most of his range...

if i call here, a lot of cards could come on the turn that would make me muck my hand especially being oop and you know he's going to be betting after the turn is checked...

i really don't wanna be sitting there trying to make a decision if there's 4 to a straight on the board... or an ace or king come... in my experiences the players at this level don't really look at the flop as far a possible hands so they just kinda play their own hands as they are... he could be betting top pair again on turn just as easily as if he could be betting a turned straight... i really don't like being put in that situation....

chances are villain thinks you are c-betting with air and is check raising with a pocket pair for fold equity...

someone correct me if needed...
I think we can include in here the floped straight and 2pair aswell within his range. I'm going to do what stax does aswell, because this spot right here blanked me at the time.
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Old 02-10-2009, 05:45 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Villian has position on us. He never limp called. Rather than a check raise it's just a raise.
oy it's way too late lol i keep misreading the hand i didn't see he was up against jorge and not shane X-D
 
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Old 02-10-2009, 07:18 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Take a look at the SPR on the flop, it's about 9
it would be a mistake for him to put in 3 bets with an 8 here
so OK, let's call, check/call turn and bet the river if he checks back the turn which is 3 bets that he'll put in with an 8 incorrectly

if he ginned this flop we're reluctantly commited to the hand which means we're trying to avoid putting any money in, but we are not folding unless we have a strong reason to believe we're beat
but if he checks turn behind we're firing the river

the reasoning that a lot of cards ruin our hand is correct, but we're not folding for one more bet

getting it in on the flop is like not optimal because he doesn't come along with the hands that we beat except for 99-JJ
but we fold the 8 that could accidentally pot commit by firing a turn bet

also we're never putting in our entire stack on a 4straight board because he has 2 pair or straight every time so if he's raising his pair + straight draw we're a flip against him and we're playing our hand correctly

so his range is wide and we'll give him rope to hang himself so if he wants to semi-bluff 97 for two streets he can do that
calling a turn and river bet on two blanks will almost never be incorrect against an aggressive opponent and sometimes you'll see silly stuff like AJ show up
although maybe not as much at NL5
so you tell me how often you expect him to barrel you with a draw on a blank turn or how often he does something stupid here
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