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baudib
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09-25-2010, 12:11 AM
Post subject: 5-handed, JJ vs. weird backraise
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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villain is tag/nittish so far, running about 13/13 over 40 hands, hasn't done anything remarkable. I've been the most active player at this table, running something like 30/27 and 3-betting a lot. The hand right before this, I 3-bet his button open and he folded.
WTF does a 13/13 limp-reraise with behind a limper?
$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($23.79)
CO ($25)
BTN ($32.36)
Hero (SB) ($30.03)
BB ($25.15)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is SB  
UTG calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.50, CO raises to $5.55,
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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He's playing back at you I suspect, tilting or slow playing.
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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So he has never limped before and now he UTG limps... What's his range, are things like 22-TT in it? Or is mainly AA and AK, if so this is easy decision right?
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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no he limped behind a limper.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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Simoner
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High Card
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2
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I think it's more probable that he's got you crushed under a bigger pocket pair - nits don't usually make such moves holding air.
You're in a tough spot here - if you call and don't hit a set on the flop, you will still probably be behind in the hand - even if there are no overcards. You say you've played the last hands very aggressively, so your folding equity is low as well.
It might be better to just fold this one. 
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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I wouldn't expect someone running at 13/13 to limp/raise AA/KK from the CO, this is an early position trick (one that I love to see backfire splendidly). Same again with QQ really, I'd expect a TAGG to be raising this every time. I guess if you've raised every time on your BB then maybe it could be these hands. It's tough to put a late pos limpraiser on a range, it's not something I see often. 22-TT is certainly possible, broadway perhaps... it looks like he's playing back at you, he probably considers you as LAGG and thinks you're opening light to defend your blind. I'd be seriously tempted to 4bet him here, at this stage I reckon his range is crushed, I suppose if he comes over the top again we reassess and probably fold, idk, I suppose it comes down to if we think he's just playing us or if he actually has the goods. The way your last three or four BB hands played out pre flop would be of importance to me. I'd be surprised here if he has AA or KK. He might have AK or AQ, so perhaps taking a flop is in order. If he opened from the CO, we 3bet and he 4bets, it's an easy fold for me then, but as played I'm really not sure.
Tough spot, I don't like the l/raise in late pos, so I'm curious to know if you got to showdown here. If you know his hole cards, can you PM me please? I'm that curious!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simoner
I think it's more probable that he's got you crushed under a bigger pocket pair - nits don't usually make such moves holding air.
You're in a tough spot here - if you call and don't hit a set on the flop, you will still probably be behind in the hand - even if there are no overcards. You say you've played the last hands very aggressively, so your folding equity is low as well.
It might be better to just fold this one. |
I wouldn't consider someone running at 13/13 over 40 hands or so to be a nit, this is TAGG for me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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lol @ this being bumped b/c yesterday i got limp/raised by a nit with ATo lol, he hits T on flop, KK wins  (in b4 csb)...
but my point is people can show up with all sorts of shit here, and obviously youd feel better with KK than with JJ here, but i think he can show up with TT 99 AQ and random shit that hes spazzing with since uve been raising him a lot enough that its EV+ to at least call, although youre going to be out of position on a lot of flops so maybe 4betting is best here, idk interested to hear what others think
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
I wouldn't expect someone running at 13/13 to limp/raise AA/KK from the CO
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40 hands
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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!Luck
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Under a bridge
Posts: 1,367
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Umm, what's with your crazy big raise?
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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I think calling in my spot is out of the question, we jam or fold.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
40 hands
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Yeah fair enough. Still, it's the kind of thing I expect from someone who doesn't know what they're doing, so I'd expect their VP$P to be running way above the PFR, even over just 40 hands, unless villain can be fairly confident our hero is rasing his blind with ATC, in which case limping AA/KK might make sense from a TAGG. I think JJ is way ahead here, way ahead. I think he rarely has QQ+, this looks more like 77-TT AJ+, but I really don't know. It depends how hero has played previous blinds.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by !Luck
Umm, what's with your crazy big raise?
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[ ] crazy big raise
2 limpers with JJ oop = try to get HU so we arent c/fing almost any board with an over, also even if utg limper is a badreg (im assuming anyone limping utg is bad) and not a total fish that we want to pwn, he is going to be limping 22-88, AT,AJ,KJ,KQ and probably calling to a bet with position on us so you need to get value from him now. Same typically with the CO he is going to be limping behind shit like suited connectors and 1 gappers, suited aces, and some pps, and bad broadways like QJo QTo JTo KTo,
so we want to first try and get as much value preflop from these ranges as possible as postflop its goign to be hard to extract a lot of value oop 3 way with a shit load of boards we dont like...even when we are an overpair, the only time anyone is going to stack off here is with a set (unless utg is some whale who thinks 88 is good on 376 MC boards). Obviously playing oop on a board with an over isnt a joy with just one person in the pot (usually best case scenario is we take down the pot right there), but with 2 people its so much more likely that you are beaten.
sorry about this rant and a lot of it probably didnt make sense most of this was just for me trying to think about JJ here, any comments would be appreciated
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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Five handed I'm 3betting JJ almost every time, for the very reasons stated above... value against dominated hands that fold the flop a high % of the time. Normally I'd fold it to a 4bet, suddenly we look dominated, but idk about here. That CO l/r is just so fucking fishy, I really don't know what it is. Tens, that's my best guess.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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it wasnt a 3bet, they limped and he iso'd ...also my post was mostly for FR but im sure what i said still applied to 6m (except ranges i mentioned may be a hair wider)
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pokertoken
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High Card
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 3
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some people just only know one way to play. then again some people will raise or limp just to mix it up for no reason.
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paratrooper99
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 135
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Perfect spot for him to squeeze.
Postflop position - check
Fairly aggressive opponent - check
His cards pretty much dont matter here to him. He knows that if you dont have AA or KK, you shut down. With 40 hands, you cant determine a small enough range to get a good answer on what to do but I would give him credit for being a decent player.
Would anybody suggest hero 4bet light here? Very unconventional but just an idea
4bet to $9.99
Ex 1 Villian shoves = we can narrow range down considerably AA,KK, AK, QQ, JJ likely we are dominated or flip at best.
Ex 2 Villian flats = we can narrow range down considerably KK(maybe) QQ,JJ,TT,AK,AQ if he is tilting. We have decent equity against this range. Also, with a cooperative flop, we can possibly get QQ AK AQ JJ TT or even KK (Ace on flop) to fold.
Again, this is very unconventional but we can narrow down his range by light 4 betting while representing a much stronger hand than we have and if he flats, maybe take it down with the lesser hand on the flop.
What do you think?
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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I think it's pretty clearly a shove/fold spot.
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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PapalRage
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Notre Dame
Posts: 309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baudib
I think it's pretty clearly a shove spot.
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FYP.
Given the history of the last hand and pretty much nobody ever limps big pairs behind other limpers. I expect to see him tilt call mid pairs and hands like AQ a fair amount.
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ndultimate.
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baudib
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,233
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ya the size of the raise gave me pause and if he had open-limped i think i would have mucked pretty quickly. it's interesting cuz i've talked to a lot of people about this hand and 3/4 put him on mid-pairs 88-TT or AQ/AK, a few think he has KK+. i just couldn't give him credit for that given he overlimped.
Hero goes all-in $30.03[/color], UTG folds, CO calls $19.45
Flop:    ($57.03, 2 players, 1 all-in)
Turn:  ($57.03, 2 players, 1 all-in)
River:  ($57.03, 2 players, 1 all-in)
Final Pot: $57.03
CO shows
 
Hero shows
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Playing big pots at small stakes.
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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"if he had open-limped i think i would have mucked pretty quickly."
Yeah, ditto that. This is an ugly way to play KK. Nice flop.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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outplayed etc
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
outplayed etc
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I guess so. But I give no credit for the limp. There's an ep limper, he might have 55, clubs, J8s, who knows? It comes back to my comment about previous blind action for our hero... if KK knew the bb was raising, then I can give him credit for the limp, but if he was just hoping for a raise when there's already a limp before him, it's dumb.
*edit - hero is sb, not bb, I just noticed, sorry. This makes his limp even dumber for me, he's prepared to take KK to a flop unraised 3 or 4 handed? What if the Hero KK is trying to trap has junk on his sb, which is probable? sb folds, bb checks, flop blah blah blah, what now for KK? He's asking for trouble.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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OngBonga
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,053
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I think CO outplayed himself.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
ongies gonna ong
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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lol only at 25nl
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
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Johnny Cashout
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 71
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nice flop, but am i the only one that doesnt like the preflop shove?
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Cashout
nice flop, but am i the only one that doesnt like the preflop shove?
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yes
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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