4nl(shallow)- 66 multi/ugly-set on flop...

raise

Originally Posted by Sloomer

raise

Raise huh? Is the CO ever getting good odds if he gets in on this flop assuming he's xxxd as short as he is?

Raise, around 0.25 I think. Find out where you stand and re-evaluate on the turn.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Raise, around 0.25 I think. Find out where you stand and re-evaluate on the turn.

I don't mind ra'ing here, but oop,and two to act on a monotone b'...

If I flop the flush IP here I'm checking..

lol at checking flush IP here.

I raise this spot for sure.

call wtf

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Raise, around 0.25 I think. Find out where you stand and re-evaluate on the turn.

This is not a good reason to raise.

Originally Posted by Shotglass

This is not a good reason to raise.

Calling is just too bad, allows everyone in as he has only bet 50% of pot. So anyone with 1 big diamond can come along for a pretty good price. If you get re-raised, you fold before anything comes out on the turn.

Raise to protect your hand and see where you stand/gain information.

Don't ever raise to see where you stand/gain information. Here, you can raise purely for value, and you can raise big, I'd make it 35c, to charge draws heavily (and they will call)

What is the problem with raising to gain information?

Because you want to be maximizing your EV on each street, not trying to make the hand 'easier' to play. If you raise for information and someone calls instead of folding, his range is stronger. While that might sound like a good situation to be in because you know your marginal hand is now nearly always behind, a more +EV situation would be to call and keep in the weaker part of his range so that you can still get value on later streets - you want to be playing against ranges which you mostly beat but sometimes lose to, rather than narrowing that range so that only hands that beat you call and weaker hands fold and don't lose any more money.

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

What is the problem with raising to gain information?

What information do we expect to get by raising the flop?

Ok, +1 for pascal here IMO..

Maybe if we ask the Hero here he'll post the T&R....

I'm sorry how is 35 into 35 a big raise?

if i were to raise with these stack sizes i would just shove

You make a good point, 50c raise sets up a shove on the turn but shoving stops him seeing one card for 50c then folding on the turn.

[4:14:34 PM] Brett: lemme tell u waht happens when u raise to some stupid size
[4:14:50 PM] Brett: 1/3 of the turns are bad
[4:14:59 PM] Brett: and then u hvve the 4nl OH GAWD WHAT NOW
[4:16:41 PM] Brett: all this shit coulda been avoided
[4:16:48 PM] Brett: if the $#*&($#& had lead the flop
[4:16:50 PM] (FTR) Stacks: by leading, yes.
[4:16:52 PM] Brett: which is the wtf obvious play to make
[4:17:06 PM] (FTR) Stacks: very
[4:17:48 PM] (FTR) Stacks: I see what you are saying though with 15 bad turn cards.
[4:17:55 PM] Brett: either shove now
[4:17:59 PM] Brett: or get it in on a safe turn
[4:18:04 PM] (FTR) Stacks: So you are calling, then leading any not shitty turn?
[4:18:08 PM] Brett: yes
[4:18:09 PM] Brett: for pot
[4:18:12 PM] Brett: or slightly over pot
[4:18:17 PM] Brett: depends on how many fuckers call
[4:18:18 PM] (FTR) Stacks: whether it's just CO or others?
[4:18:24 PM] Brett: yes
[4:18:26 PM] (FTR) Stacks: gotcha
[4:18:40 PM] Brett: am leadiing every non shitty turn
[4:18:45 PM] Brett: and c/evaluating every shitty turn
[4:19:18 PM] (FTR) Stacks: yeah essentially you don't really want to raise smallish, giving UTG odds to call, then on 15 turn cards have to be in a shitty situation OOP. When you can call, and still force them to make mistakes on good turn cards when they then peel without the odds to do so.


take notes.

Think you can apply this to the

Originally Posted by bikes

[4:14:34 PM] [4:19:18 PM] (FTR) Stacks: When you can call, and still force them to make mistakes on good turn cards when they then peel without the odds to do so

take notes.

You can apply this to raising the flop, villains aren't going to fold high diamonds often, especially not with overcards. Once you raise flop gutshots are going to be a very small part of villains range, I'd only be scared of diamonds.

I like leading against aggressive villains who are more likely to raise than peel draws but the reads given don't suggest any villains like this

Originally Posted by Pascal

Think you can apply this to the

You can apply this to raising the flop, villains aren't going to fold high diamonds often, especially not with overcards. Once you raise flop gutshots are going to be a very small part of villains range, I'd only be scared of diamonds.

I like leading against aggressive villains who are more likely to raise than peel draws but the reads given don't suggest any villains like this

yes except there isn't a price you can raise to with these stack sizes that effective as you would put it 'charge them to draw' without shoving. to borrow your sizing again 50 into 35 gives them odds to call with a solid diamond in their hand. 60c is better but still is only a very small mistake for them to call and then they have a +EV call on the turn when you jam even if they don't spike. so is it clear why raising is f horrible yet?

also to your point of maximizing every street. this is horribly wrong the goal is to maximize for the overall hand and you will make horrible choices if you go for street by street maximization.

if you aren't leading here on the flop then you have massive massive fundamental leaks. and thought process leaks.

If we raise to 50c and CO has a solid diamond then he has to call 40c into ~$1.10 to see one street to hit a diamond?

Not sure why you're saying that anything apart from leading flop is awful then discussed whether you should call or raise in your last post for about half the Skype conversation

I over-simplified my explanation as to raising for information, I should have said maximizing your EV over the hand. We don't gain enough information by raising to make it worth the loss vs the optimal option.

Looking over it all, I agree that leading is the best option, but I don't think think there's that much difference between calling and raising as a 2nd option.

CO started the hand with fifty eight cents. If CO was deeper and we misplayed flop by not leading then we'd have to raise, but CO has forty four cents behind after his flop lead.

I should learn to read, got stack sizes confused - thanks d0zer and sorry bikes

Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

What is the problem with raising to gain information?

Everytime they fold you were ahead. Almost every time they call, you are behind.

wow, this post really took off...

I certainly misplayed the flop, I hate being in the sb w/ 3+ villains, ranges are wide, I had not played in a week and wanted to get 1000 hands on shallow before I moved back to 100bb..

Given table dynamics and reads, can we ever just fold here???

fold pre that is..... sorry

Originally Posted by WeldPhaser

fold pre that is..... sorry

no

This is the most wtf obvious lead ever. Checking on such a wet flop and letting 3 people get free equity on a board where we hate life on 15 outs is just so bad.

yeah, well I can say this, I wasn't multi-tabling, I didn't hit check by accident, and the most important point of all: I suck

I think being in mulyi-ways oop is a super leak for me. obv'

fuck me

When did having a set ever become a small hand to be scared of?

Ok yes - you dont have the stone cold nuts - but do you think some guy at 4nl is going to fold the Ax diamonds if you mash the raise button - are they heck - this is the primary reason you make money at these stakes - people passivly chasing hands without odds or not folding horribly second best hands.

If you get it all in here, yes you will on occasion get it in bad, but in comparison to the repeated situations and mistakes your opponents are making it is a less mistake.

Fuck - if my AA is beat im often getting stacked, there arent too many spots im not getting stacked with 666 if it is beaten especially given the quality of the opponents youd be playing here.

A set is a big hand - get the &^_)&*((- pot big!!!!!

P.S if you raise/c/r this flop and the turn is a blank or boats you upI would still bet Ace of diamonds wont fold to a turn shove if you set up the pot size right - zing $$$$$$$$$ (just dont tilt when he sucks out 15% the time)

WOOOOSH

Originally Posted by bikes

WOOOOSH

You need to get some of these guys in IRC again if it isnt dead.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

You need to get some of these guys in IRC again if it isnt dead.

is that where the proz hang out ?

first rule about fight club is you don't talk about fight club.

#flopturnriver had two people in it when I checked last night.

afaik that isn't even the real ftr channel any more.

Dwarfman for mod IMO