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Vi-Zer0Skill

10-14-2007, 07:42 AM Post subject: 4Betting with 100BB stacks

#1 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Assuming 100BB stacks, a reasonably sized 4bet is essentially pot committing.

If villain has a hand like J-J/Q-Q, he could just call a 4bet, and have the opportunity to fold if the flop comes Ace/King high.

Are we not are allowing our opponent to play a portion of his range better by not 4bet shoving preflop? What disadvantages do you see to 4bet shoving preflop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

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daven

10-15-2007, 04:42 AM

#2 (permalink)

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what's your range for 4-betting? and opp's range for 3-betting? I think the answer varies hugely by range
how I think opp sees me will have an impact as well.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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Genitruc

10-15-2007, 05:46 AM

#3 (permalink)

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if you think your opponent is folding JJ QQ on A or K high flops then it seems like that opens up some fun bluff shoving possibilities with air...

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

BankItDrew

10-15-2007, 10:58 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Why would villains call a 4bet preflop and then make a decision postflop based on the appearance or non appearance of an ace or king? If villain puts hero on AK preflop, isn't calling preflop a bad decision? I would assume a raise would be in order.

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Vi-Zer0Skill

10-16-2007, 01:21 AM

#5 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

what's your range for 4-betting? and opp's range for 3-betting? I think the answer varies hugely by range
how I think opp sees me will have an impact as well.

I may be misunderstanding your post, but i can't see how it ties into my question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

if you think your opponent is folding JJ QQ on A or K high flops then it seems like that opens up some fun bluff shoving possibilities with air...

I don't think he would be making that big of a mistake to not put more money in on those flops, as much of my 4betting range that he wouldn't already be behind includes A-K/A-xs. I can't see myself ending up in 4bet pots with a totally garbage hand, but i can see shoving all in with a mid pair in this spot as being effective. I still don't think he is losing value by taking a check/fold approach on these flop types.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BankitDrew

If you consider A-K to be a drawing hand, wouldn't he be helping me to get our money in with a draw on an earlier street when my hand has the most equity? He can also control whether or not the money goes in on the flop, either by shoving OOP or when checked to IP on dry flops or calling a c-bet on a dry flop when IP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Vi-Zer0Skill

10-16-2007, 01:24 AM

#6 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Besides the J-J/Q-Q example, can you guys think of any other reasons to/not to 4bet shove preflop with 100BB stacks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Genitruc

10-16-2007, 02:00 AM

#7 (permalink)

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vs a fish who is scared of your bet solely based on the size of your bets small 4 bet is better than shove cuz they ll call with ANYTHING to the preflop 4 bet but they ll fold lots to your shoves

vs regs 4-betting small is pretty tough to play against but I don't do it; I think sauce and gabe do it pretty frequently

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

Silly String

10-16-2007, 03:04 AM

#8 (permalink)

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I 4bet 2x the 3bet raise on occasion with loose holdings, if I think I am being 3bet light and have a tight image. Most villains will not push over without KK+, but their 3betting range is 88+, AQs+, and even some Axs. A loose 3bettor will still usually only 5bet push or even call a 4bet with QQ+, AK. That leaves quite a bit of his range that he will fold off. Of course the above is all read/opponent dependent.
I also do this with AA to balance my range and fully intend to go stacks on the flop.

Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.

Vi-Zer0Skill

10-16-2007, 08:31 PM

#9 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

vs a fish who is scared of your bet solely based on the size of your bets small 4 bet is better than shove cuz they ll call with ANYTHING to the preflop 4 bet but they ll fold lots to your shoves

Man, i wish i saw this at Pokerstars!!! It's worth considering that the smaller bet may actually have more F.E. though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genitruc

vs regs 4-betting small is pretty tough to play against but I don't do it; I think sauce and gabe do it pretty frequently

I wonder how they size their 4bet so they aren't committed to calling a shove.

X: raises to $8
Y: raises to $24
X: raises to $40-48?

I guess getting only 1.5:1 you could fold to a lot of shoves. I think though that you would end up getting shoved on more since a good player would know that you weren't committed to call a shove. But then i guess sauce/gabe would know that a good player would know this and call with a wider range (10-10+/A-K+)? More thoughts on this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SillyString

I agree with pretty much everything you said. What do you think about the actual bet sizing though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Fnord

10-16-2007, 08:58 PM

#10 (permalink)

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You should be more inclined to make a small 4-bet if you're out of position and you would have half to full pot behind. You should be more inclined to shove if you're in position. In other words, the player first to act figures to have the best of it if it's clear both players are pretty strong and there is less than pot behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Vi-Zer0Skill

10-17-2007, 02:50 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

thanks Fnord, this makes perfect sense to me.

Get to save $$$ w/ J-J/Q-Q/A-K when OOP and the flop comes out bad.
Get to put money in w/ A-K preflop IP.

Sometimes i won't get to see a flop in a 4bet pot OOP b/c the other guy will shove, but sometimes they won't...

lol the answer was in my question

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

TrAdam5

10-17-2007, 08:50 PM Post subject: Re: 4Betting with 100BB stacks

#12 (permalink)

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Posts: 49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Hey vi,

I like your series of posts, I think they're insightful, and well thought out as a whole.

I'm curious as to how much you 4-bet preflop vs. smooth calling 3 bets. I play mainly 200 full ring now, although i did play quite a bit of 100 6 max over the summer. I defintely did 4-bet more in 6 max, mostly against over-aggro, 3 bet happy opponents, but even then I often would smooth call alot in position. Now, at 200 NL, I rarely 4-bet. As I see it, the main points for 4-betting are the following (feel free to correct me if I miss any):
1.) Building a pot with monster hands (aka aa and KK, maybe qq or jj against very loose opponents)
2.) Utilizing fold equity against an over-aggro player with small suited aces, low mid pairs, suited connectors, etc., hands which are well behind a legit hand he can call with, but have decent equity.
3.) Sort of combining the two above concepts with ak, where youre normally trying to utilize its fold equity, but you still have good equity against a range that can call a 4 bet (at least against most opp.'s), and u might even be building a pot in a case where ur way ahead against a donk who calls with some crap like aq or aj
4.) Meta-game considerations. People might be less inclined to 3-bet u light if they have to worry about an ensuing 4-bet by u. People also might later call down your monsters lighter if they think your a maniac.

So while I recognize the advantages of 4-betting, I didn't do it that often at 100 NL 6 max, and VERY rarely have done it at 200 NL full ring. Why? Well, for several reasons. First, I like to try to play a lower variance style of poker, and regularly 4-betting is a high variance style of poker. Secondly, I think I have a bigger advantage against my opponents postflop than pre, so I try to put myself in positions to maxiimize that advantage. Thirdly, I think with 4-betting you have to be very careful with risk/award ratio. You suggest 4-bet shoving. Say ur playing 100 NL, I open raise on the cutoff with a3 suited to 4, i get raised t o 14 by a lag. I think there is a decent chance he is stealing. But here is a problem (or at the minimum a VERY high variance play), by 4 bet raising to say 42 here, with 100 bb stacks, u are practically commited to calling a shove (58 to win over 140, all u need is 30% equity vs his range). This leaves you with making a small raise (i.e. to 35 or so maybe), allowing you to fold to a shove, or the need to effectively commit yourself to 100 in order to pick up the 19 in the pot or so. You see it all the time in tourneys where people 3-bet light, get committed to big pots where they didn't think about the 3-bet committing them to calling a shove. I try to avoid these scenarios if I can.
So, instead of 4-betting alot, I often will just smooth call a lot of 3-bets (esp. in position), including with aa and kk. By smooth calling with AA and KK alot of 3-bets, I am able to trap alot of qq and jjs on low flops, and ak and aq on k or q high flops, all who may have folded to a 4-bet. And against steal hands, I also pick off at least a c-bet (often good for 20 bbs) that i wouldn't have gotten with 4 betting). By having a 3 bet calling range of (77-aa, ak, aq, occasionally 22-66 and suited coneectors depending on circumstances) or something similar to that depending on the table, it makes it hard for a 3-better to procced postflop vs me.

All of that being said, 4-betting is definitely effective against over-aggro players, esp. if you have good instincts/timing. I guess my strategy against over aggro 3-betters is more of a trapping one, while 4-betting is more fighting fire with fire. 4-betting is def. something I would like to utilize a little more. For a good lag, being able to 4-bet a 2 suited, 89, or aa makes him very difficult to play against. So, I'm curious how often you guys use the 4-bet, and everybody's thoughts on this topic in general.

I know I just wrote enough a mini-book, but I find the use of the 4 bet a very intersting topic, and am curious to hear others opinions.

Fnord

10-17-2007, 09:13 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

Get to save $$$ w/ J-J/Q-Q/A-K when OOP and the flop comes out bad.
Get to put money in w/ A-K preflop IP.

Stop trying to save money and focus more on putting pressure on your opponent is spots where he can't take it. Shoving first will win you hands like QQ vs KK on Axx flops and AK vs AK more often than you would save money by abandoning over a third of your stack. Also, you will see some really retarded calls by weak hands that can't take any pressure on most flops, allowing you to win AK vs 88 or JTs more often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Vi-Zer0Skill

10-18-2007, 08:05 PM

#14 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Hey TrAdam5, and thanks for the compliment. Your response also suggests your reasons for not 4betting often were well thought out too.

As for how i decide whether 4betting vs just calling a 3bet is going to be best, (obviously) it's situational.

If i have a nice hand like K-K, for example, i would consider just calling the reraise if

1). I were in position. This is important because i don't want my opponent to have the opportunity to check behind and see the turn for free.
2). My opponent continuation bets a high percentage of the time in reraised pots.
3). (similar to point 2) My opponent tends to make big bluffs in reraised pots, so long as i don't take the initiative away from him.

If my opponent is willing to get the money in lightly, i might as well 4bet when i am usually going to like my hand the most (preflop).

If i have a hand like A-K, i usually want to get the money in preflop as well. One situation where i might not would be versus an opponent who i know reraises a lot of hands that are easily dominated (K-Q, A-10). In which case i am sort of slowplaying, but i do intend to make a lot of semibluffs over this players c-bets when i miss. As he is 3betting a range that include a decent amount of overcards, low flops (i.e. 8-7-3) would be a decent spot to semibluff.

I don't know if i agree with the variance argument, just because playing a lot of reraised pots is high variance anyways. And, if you are getting in with a balanced 4bet range, you won't be getting it all in solidly behind very often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Vi-Zer0Skill

10-18-2007, 08:14 PM

#15 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I wouldn't want to try to get someone whose 4bet calling range is unknown to me to fold in a 4bet pot with 100BB stacks. Even on regulars whom i have >1000 hands on, i usually only have 1-2 pots that have gone past a 4bet preflop and nothing to suggest they don't play a premium hand when raising/calling a 4bet with such sized stacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Also, you will see some really retarded calls by weak hands that can't take any pressure on most flops, allowing you to win AK vs 88 or JTs more often.

I envy your powers of table selection (do you really see this at 200NL?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Vi-Zer0Skill

10-18-2007, 08:28 PM

#16 (permalink)

Reagan's Kid
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If i have A-K and my opponents' 4bet calling range is Q-Q+/A-K, i assume i am only going to get him to fold at best 50% of his range by committing myself to a non Ace/King high flop (which is basically the best type of flop versus this 4bet calling range). I assume i will get A-K to fold 100%, and sometimes Q-Q as well.

Board: 8h 6d 3s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.696% 18.70% 00.00% 2036 0.00 { AhKh }
Hand 1: 81.304% 81.30% 00.00% 8854 0.00 { KK+, QcQh, QcQs, QdQh, QdQs, QhQs }

---

Realistically, it's could be as high as 20%, depending on backdoor straight/flush possibilities.

There are 16 combinations of A-K (i screwed up an EV calculation i did for someone else in the SH Forum a little while ago sorry Dislexik!), 6 combinations each of Q-Q, K-K, and A-A. Basically, if he will sometimes fold Q-Q, and always fold A-K, we will fold out 50% of his 4bet calling range on an optimal flop (one that doesn't hit A-K).

I don't think you can bet/fold in a 4bet pot, so i assume any bet with the effective stacks is pot committing.

(X equals the current pot size, 2X equals what we lose if our bet is raised/called).

I win 1X 50% = 0.5X
I lose 2X 80% of 50% (40%) = -0.8X
I lose 2X 20% of 50% (10%) = 0.1X

Without specific information on my opponents' 4bet calling range, i think it would be a mistake to try to push him out of the pot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools

Ragnar4

10-31-2007, 08:34 AM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

Maybe I'm a little confused

1-2
Raise : 8 dollars (first bet)
re-raise: 24 Dollars (2nd bet)
Re-raise 40-48 dollars (3rd bet)
re-raise has to be minumum 2x last bet. obviously pot commiting...

Unless you're talking about the 8 dollar original raise being a 4-bet...

Please end my confusion.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

Chopper

10-31-2007, 01:33 PM

#18 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Stop trying to save money and focus more on putting pressure on your opponent is spots where he can't take it.

wow, more "Deep Thoughts" by Fnord Handy.

its so simple, yet so good. thank you for turning on the light bulb once again.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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