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krafty
Old 07-14-2010, 04:57 AM     Post subject: 4bet/fold? #1 (permalink)  
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 Is it ok to 4bet loose 3bettors for value and then fold to a shove? ie. We're CO with AQ, button with 10% 3bet. Assuming 100bb stacks and no reads on 5bet shove range. Folding to the 3bet in these spots seems exploitable.
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Icanhastreebet
Old 07-14-2010, 05:00 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 why can't you call the 3b if they are 3bing wide?
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Micro2Macro
Old 07-14-2010, 06:38 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet View Post
why can't you call the 3b if they are 3bing wide?
this involves hand reading and such postflopaments u kno?
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krafty
Old 07-14-2010, 07:48 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 So calling in these spots is best? If I were IP i'd call for sure but being OOP post flop feels akward cos' I gotta c/f so many flops.
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Imthenewfish
Old 07-14-2010, 04:11 PM #5 (permalink)  
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sample size?
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krafty
Old 07-14-2010, 05:16 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Imthenewfish View Post
sample size?
Uhh. The question wasn't about one hand, more like general guideline.

I find myself often in this situation. I've been 3bet and I'm OOP and I have only a slightly better hand than his 3bet range (I think AQ vs 10% range is a good example).

Folding seems weak since we beat his range. 4bet/fold seems bad since he can easily play almost perfectly against it like shipping with AA/KK/QQ and folding the rest. 4bet/ship seems bad for the same reason. Calling feels akward since we're OOP.

I guess I'll just start calling and 4bet with polarized range.

Starting playing again sure is hard...
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Imthenewfish
Old 07-14-2010, 06:56 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krafty View Post
Uhh. The question wasn't about one hand, more like general guideline.

I find myself often in this situation. I've been 3bet and I'm OOP and I have only a slightly better hand than his 3bet range (I think AQ vs 10% range is a good example).

Folding seems weak since we beat his range. 4bet/fold seems bad since he can easily play almost perfectly against it like shipping with AA/KK/QQ and folding the rest. 4bet/ship seems bad for the same reason. Calling feels akward since we're OOP.

I guess I'll just start calling and 4bet with polarized range.

Starting playing again sure is hard...
I'm not really sure if i agree with this. I was kinda asking like how much information do we have on him because he might not be 3betting the top 10% of his range
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Outlaw
Old 07-14-2010, 10:57 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krafty View Post
Is it ok to 4bet loose 3bettors for value and then fold to a shove? ie. We're CO with AQ, button with 10% 3bet. Assuming 100bb stacks and no reads on 5bet shove range. Folding to the 3bet in these spots seems exploitable.
It depends a lot on your 4-bet sizing.. if you 4-bet bigger, say like to 35-37bbs, you will only need like 31% equity to call a shove. If you 4-bet smaller to 27ish bbs you would need like 36%ish equity to call. Its been awhile since I figured those numbers but those are the ones that stick in my head. I almost always 4-bet on the small side.. it definitely gives you a lot more flexibility on making decisions.

I do know that 4-betting any good ace and folding is pretty dang bad against all but the biggest nits.

Here is a hand I played today against a reg who was 3-betting vs steal something like 15% and 4-betting like 6%. He is very exploitable but man can sitting to his right lead to high variance. I would recommend never having a guy like this within 4 seats of your left... I need to work on my table selection

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

SB ($58.55)
BB ($62.85)
UTG ($95.50)
UTG+1 ($48.90)
MP1 ($51.05)
MP2 ($50)
MP3 ($50.75)
Hero (CO) ($63.20)
Button ($50.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, J
5 folds, Hero bets $1.50, Button raises to $5, 2 folds, Hero raises to $13.50, Button raises to $50.75 (All-In), Hero calls $37.25

Flop: ($102.25) 9, 4, J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($102.25) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($102.25) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $102.25 | Rake: $3

Results below:
Button had K, J (one pair, Jacks).
Hero had A, J (one pair, Jacks).
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Outlaw
Old 07-14-2010, 11:01 PM #9 (permalink)  
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And just for info sake, if a guy is 5-betting 4% (you will see higher than this), here is a stove for AQ, which seems right on the border. If someone is 5-betting 5% or higher AQ and pretty much any premium ace is an easy call.

Luckily, I play FR and don't have to worry bout this stuff as much.

Hand 0: 34.280% 31.20% 03.08% 378269844 37305918.00 { AQs, AQo }
Hand 1: 65.720% 62.64% 03.08% 759429552 37305918.00 { 99+, AQs+, AKo }
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Icanhastreebet
Old 07-15-2010, 05:09 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 God that stack off is horrible outlaw, also if your OOP just fold or 4b small(some villains suck and will NEVER flat 4bs no matter how small you make it) If you 4b fairly large ofcourse u have to stack off w/ AQ.
IP just flat and play poker. Actually IP flat everything what you continue you with unless villain is a complete spazz case. Creating 4b dynamics is pretty worthless unless your playing with people a fucking shitload and you'll be a better player for learning how to play postflop in 3b pots. However if they are ACTUALLY a loose 3ber (say 12% OTB) you can definately flat AQ/KQ OOP. 10% isn't "that" loose OTB and you are better off just turning your hand into a bluff if you can't quite deal with playing OOP. Oh also just because you don't put the last bet in pre-flop doesn't mean you can't have a leading range, experiment you'll become a better player for it.
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gametight
Old 07-15-2010, 07:01 AM #11 (permalink)  
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fold pre
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Outlaw
Old 07-15-2010, 12:14 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet View Post
God that stack off is horrible outlaw, also if your OOP just fold or 4b small(some villains suck and will NEVER flat 4bs no matter how small you make it) If you 4b fairly large ofcourse u have to stack off w/ AQ.
IP just flat and play poker. Actually IP flat everything what you continue you with unless villain is a complete spazz case. Creating 4b dynamics is pretty worthless unless your playing with people a fucking shitload and you'll be a better player for learning how to play postflop in 3b pots. However if they are ACTUALLY a loose 3ber (say 12% OTB) you can definately flat AQ/KQ OOP. 10% isn't "that" loose OTB and you are better off just turning your hand into a bluff if you can't quite deal with playing OOP. Oh also just because you don't put the last bet in pre-flop doesn't mean you can't have a leading range, experiment you'll become a better player for it.
I have 4k hands on villain. My stackoff there was standard as I was ahead of his 5-bet range vs. me.
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