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Icanhastreebet
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07-10-2010, 04:59 AM
Post subject: 3betting in position
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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To get us started lets talk about optimal 3b ranges versus different opponent types in position.
People raise/fold too much.
People who raise/call too much.
People who raise/4b too much.
Also consider postflop tendencies for each of these types. IE The guy who raise/calls too much may c/f too much or continue too c/c too much postflop.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
To get us started lets talk about optimal 3b ranges versus different opponent types in position.
People raise/fold too much.
People who raise/call too much.
People who raise/4b too much.
Also consider postflop tendencies for each of these types. IE The guy who raise/calls too much may c/f too much or continue too c/c too much postflop.
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Raise/Fold - These are the type of players that we can 3bet bluff against a high frequency of the time because it's profitable due to fold equity alone. 3bets should be predominantly consisting of low value hands that we can't call with (A2s, K9s, etc). Obviously we will want to balance some % of the time by 3betting nut hands, but typically not very often, as he is going to fold inferior hands an enormous amount of the time that we could get extra value from postflop if we simply flatted our premium hands.
If villain calls, we typically should be giving up postflop fairly often, as villains range is usually relatively strong. Whereas, ours is pretty weak.
Raise/Call - If the villain is check/calling often postflop, we want to 3bet a wide value range. Hands such as ATs, AJs, KQs, etc start to to diverge from our preflop call range to our value 3bet range. If villain check/folds too often postflop, we we will just 3bet the shit out of him. We 3bet our value hands because he's calling often preflop, but we also 3bet with a large number of bluffs because he is simply putting in a lot of passive dead money with a wide weak range that we can expect to win postflop.
Raise/4b - Widen our value range, and 3bet often. If he is 4betting with a wide range, we want to have solid hands in our shoving range. Nut hands obviously, but also hands that have solid equity against villain's calling range (A5s, etc) so we can 5b bluff shove.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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I find I have a lot more success 5-bet bluffing with 55-JJ vs bad villain's who 4-bet bluff a lot. They seem to show up more often than not with hands like AJ+ and are more likely to call or fold pocket pairs below QQ... if most of their 4-bet range is pocket pairs QQ+ we shouldnt be 5-betting anyways without the nuts.
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.275% 57.08% 00.20% 2533342860 8699658.00 { JJ+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 42.725% 42.53% 00.20% 1887549792 8699658.00 { TT-55 }
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 69.679% 67.74% 01.94% 2380154796 68127480.00 { JJ+, AJs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 30.321% 28.38% 01.94% 997238052 68127480.00 { ATs-A2s }
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StarGrinder
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UTG (aka USA)
Posts: 683
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I have an extremely low fold to 3bet% and high 4bet% since everyone at the micros seems to love the min-3bet, which is like that annoying fly buzzing across your monitor at night that you just can't kill. 
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c4ptain_obv
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One Pair
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Raise/Fold - These are the type of players that we can 3bet bluff against a high frequency of the time because it's profitable due to fold equity alone. 3bets should be predominantly consisting of low value hands that we can't call with (A2s, K9s, etc). Obviously we will want to balance some % of the time by 3betting nut hands, but typically not very often, as he is going to fold inferior hands an enormous amount of the time that we could get extra value from postflop if we simply flatted our premium hands.
If villain calls, we typically should be giving up postflop fairly often, as villains range is usually relatively strong. Whereas, ours is pretty weak.
Raise/Call - If the villain is check/calling often postflop, we want to 3bet a wide value range. Hands such as ATs, AJs, KQs, etc start to to diverge from our preflop call range to our value 3bet range. If villain check/folds too often postflop, we we will just 3bet the shit out of him. We 3bet our value hands because he's calling often preflop, but we also 3bet with a large number of bluffs because he is simply putting in a lot of passive dead money with a wide weak range that we can expect to win postflop.
Raise/4b - Widen our value range, and 3bet often. If he is 4betting with a wide range, we want to have solid hands in our shoving range. Nut hands obviously, but also hands that have solid equity against villain's calling range (A5s, etc) so we can 5b bluff shove.
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2 questions:
1) so we should just call a raise with premiums PF against the first type?
2) I've never really got the whole 5b bluff shove-thing. I see how you can have quit a bit of equity here, but since he's only calling with his premiums if you overshove (right?), isn't it -EV then? (obv not, I'm just asking why not)
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
To get us started lets talk about optimal 3b ranges versus different opponent types in position.
People raise/fold too much.
People who raise/call too much.
People who raise/4b too much.
Also consider postflop tendencies for each of these types. IE The guy who raise/calls too much may c/f too much or continue too c/c too much postflop.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
I find I have a lot more success 5-bet bluffing with 55-JJ vs bad villain's who 4-bet bluff a lot.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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Response to Captain obv.
1. Since this type of guy opens a lot and folds to a ton of 3 bets prolly something like 75%+, we should be looking to 3 bet bluff the shit out of him. Since we expect him to fold to so many of our 3 bets we can actually expect to win more from him with our big hands by flatting IP and raising/value betting boards where we dominate a lot of his range. For example of we hold QQ and we know his continuing range to a 3 bet is [JJ+ AK], then we'll only have 47% equity when he calls the 3 bet, when we flat however, we'll keep in all the horribly dominated hands in his range that are going to lose money frequntly to us postflop such as QJ KQ TT 99 88 etc. Obviously though, most players will eventually adjust after we've been 3 betting the shit out of them and begin to call wider or 4 bet bluff; at this point we can widen out 3 bet value range and incorporate more and more hands as he continues wider to our 3 bets. Initially though, vs this guy, there's nothing wrong with flatting hands like AA KK QQ AK IP vs him since we do so much better vs his preflop opening range than we do his continuing to a 3-bet range, and we fold out too many of the hands we'd like to get value from post flop by 3 betting these hands IP before he's adjusted.
2. Okay so villain's 4 bet/calling range is [AK JJ+] but he 4 bets as a bluff quite a bit, but this is the total range he 4 bets: [JJ+,AKs,K5s-K4s,AKo,A9o-A5o,A2o,K9o-K7o] His 4 bet/calling it off range here is only 25% of his total 4 betting range, so he'll be folding 75% of the time to our 5-bet-jam. So, say he opens to $3, we 3 bet to $9, he 4 bets to $23 and stacks are $100 deep. 75% of the time when we shove 55 vs this range we win $23 (b/c he folds) and the other 25% of the time we get it in vs [JJ+ AK] and so have 33% equity and so win 1/3rd of a 200 pot, so our EV in this case is -$33, since we stick in $100 and on average get back $66.
So let's sumarise: when we shove 55 over this particular villain's 4 bet, we win 23$ 75% of the time and lose $33 25% of the time. When we run this out 4 times, on avg we win 23x3 - 33x1 = $36, divide this by 4 and we see that our EV from 4 betting this guy is like +$9.
So if villain is folding enough when he 4 bets, the dead money more than makes up for the times we get it inas a 2-1 underdog vs hi strong felting range. The more villain stacks off with, the less we want to 5 bet bluff shove and the less equity our hand has vs villains range the less we want to 5 bet bluff shove. This is obv why 55 is far better than 62o.
Hope that helps.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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<@spoonitnow> A5s vs 55 for 5-bet bluffing
<@spoonitnow> A5s has more FE/less E, 55 has less FE/more E
<@spoonitnow> against a range like {JJ+, AK} or w/e
<@spoonitnow> also skeletor is a badass
<Carrotz> agree with all of the above
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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what changes if we are oop? just tighter ranges in general but still same principles?
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nonofyobiz
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 158
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How do we identify ppl who ...
Quote:
People raise/fold too much.
People who raise/call too much.
People who raise/4b too much.
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what is a high...
'fold to 3bet %'?
'call 3bet %'? is that also 'cold call preflop %'?
and 4bet %.
I don't usually have enough stats on other players to get useable number for these. 
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c4ptain_obv
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One Pair
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 20
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@ carroters
Thx, that was a very clear explanation
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c4ptain_obv
2 questions:
1) so we should just call a raise with premiums PF against the first type?
2) I've never really got the whole 5b bluff shove-thing. I see how you can have quit a bit of equity here, but since he's only calling with his premiums if you overshove (right?), isn't it -EV then? (obv not, I'm just asking why not)
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Carroters said pretty much exactly what I wanted to say.
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kfaess
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Raise/Fold - These are the type of players that we can 3bet bluff against a high frequency of the time because it's profitable due to fold equity alone. 3bets should be predominantly consisting of low value hands that we can't call with (A2s, K9s, etc). Obviously we will want to balance some % of the time by 3betting nut hands, but typically not very often, as he is going to fold inferior hands an enormous amount of the time that we could get extra value from postflop if we simply flatted our premium hands.
If villain calls, we typically should be giving up postflop fairly often, as villains range is usually relatively strong. Whereas, ours is pretty weak.
Raise/Call - If the villain is check/calling often postflop, we want to 3bet a wide value range. Hands such as ATs, AJs, KQs, etc start to to diverge from our preflop call range to our value 3bet range. If villain check/folds too often postflop, we we will just 3bet the shit out of him. We 3bet our value hands because he's calling often preflop, but we also 3bet with a large number of bluffs because he is simply putting in a lot of passive dead money with a wide weak range that we can expect to win postflop.
Raise/4b - Widen our value range, and 3bet often. If he is 4betting with a wide range, we want to have solid hands in our shoving range. Nut hands obviously, but also hands that have solid equity against villain's calling range (A5s, etc) so we can 5b bluff shove.
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I like this post a lot.
If we are playing against someone who raise/calls too often and then c/c's post flop, should we also be adding hands like 99, TT, JJ to our value 3-betting range (assuming you don't already 3-bet TT, JJ)?
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CBAT
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nonofyobiz
How do we identify ppl who ...
what is a high...
'fold to 3bet %'?
'call 3bet %'? is that also 'cold call preflop %'?
and 4bet %.
I don't usually have enough stats on other players to get useable number for these. |
And yeah it will take a while to get enough stats about a player to find out what kind of players they are.
A high fold to 3b% would be anything above 75%. But the tricky thing is that you have to look at the situations that they do call 3bets. If they call a lot of 3bets IP on the button vs a LAGG blind player this will skew their stats.
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfaess
I like this post a lot.
If we are playing against someone who raise/calls too often and then c/c's post flop, should we also be adding hands like 99, TT, JJ to our value 3-betting range (assuming you don't already 3-bet TT, JJ)?
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Yes but it is going to be more difficult to play postflop since your range is obviously weaker. Despite being weaker though it is still going to be profitable to have these hands versus someone flatting too much. IE 99 is doing amazing v someone flatting any pair/weak SCs(67s)/bad suited gappers(J7s)/ and pretty much anything with some type of equity.
You can also add hands like KQ/QJ/KJ but don't go batshit insane 3bing someone who flats too much. People playing too wide pre-flop may be playing too wide postflop(never folding to c-bets/2barrels. This is something I think a lot of 6m/FR players don't do enough of(3bing ppl who don't fold enough w/ value hands they are usually flatting).
If this post is confusing to some or unclear just tell me what's unclear and I'll try and make this more clear and concise with specific examples and probably some HHs that I can dig up.
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 994
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Oh something I should mention, if a player is only opening 10% in a spot and continuing to 3bs 50% of the time that doesn't mean you can 3b JJ for value. This is obvious but may get overlooked. Also if they are opening 50% and folding 75% you can definately 3b JJ for value since their continuing range looks something like {77+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,AJo+,KQ o}. The 25% of hands they are continuing with could obviously look very different from player to player but this should give you some idea. Also flatting IP v this type of player w/ JJ and keeping all the junk we dominate may be more optimal but bloating pots IP v weak ranges is something you should love to do.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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wow bump this needs a lot more discussion
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