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3bet sizing

  
 
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 11-19-2007, 09:09 PM     Post subject: 3bet sizing #1 (permalink)  
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 Lately, i've been sizing my 3bets a little smaller, usually 11BB as opposed to 13-14BB. I also usually c-bet to a size very close 2/3PSB, if not a little bit smaller.

A couple benefits that came up during a discussion i had with DaGOAT today about it:

1). Our opponents are more likely to call with hands like A-J/K-Q, which sort of turns our A-Q into A-K (in terms of "domination")
2). Our opponents call with more small pairs preflop, hoping to set mine. They probably fold too often to my continuation bets
3). Because stack sizes are somewhat awkward for a bluff raise all in, i suspect my opponents are making moves on me in 3bet pots less often.


What other advantages or disadvantages do you see to a smaller 3bet size?
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Ash256
Old 11-20-2007, 04:00 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 With regards to set mining, won't aware players only setmine when they've got favourable odds? Meaning that giving them odds to setmine is a bad thing?

1 is a really really good point.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 11-20-2007, 06:01 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash256
With regards to set mining, won't aware players only setmine when they've got favourable odds? Meaning that giving them odds to setmine is a bad thing?

1 is a really really good point.

(100BB stacks)

Reg: raises to 4BB (holding 2-2)
Me: raises to 11BB

Reg: '7BB to potentially win 89BB, I CALLZ'

In this situation, my opponent is getting basically 13:1 implied odds to stack me.

It's important to consider he is almost never going to win the pot without flopping a set. (i.e. he isn't going to float me with 4-4 on a QJ7 flop). This probably isn't as true in bigger games, but at 200NL i'd say it's true for 98% of the regular player pool.

My 3bet range includes a lot of K-xs/A-xs, small pairs and occasional SC's, as well as J-J/A-K+. I am not exactly felting all of these hands on the flop (he would only need 8:1 if i were).



However, one adjustment i've had to make is with A-xs/K-xs i have to play more for pot control in 3bet pots when i flop a pair of Kings or Aces. Because im expecting more K-Q/A-J hands to call my 3bets, getting raised after flopping TP is scarier since my opponents' range contains more made hands that beat me.

This is a simple adjustment to make - most people aren't double barrel bluffing in 3bet pots so i can usually c/c the flop and c/f the turn. This bet sizing approach also has the advantage of strengthening the range of hands i will check with on the flop after being the preflop aggressor. This helps me to snap off the one street bluffs people will make in 3bet pots at 200NL.



DG mentioned point one - the only thing i had really thought of before regarding this today was how i might discourage my opponents from bluff raising me on the flop lol
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Miffed22001
Old 11-20-2007, 07:06 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 the only thing wit this is that if you 3 bet even small to say $22 at 1/2nl check the flop for control or even the turn after betting flop, the river is always a PSB for anybody.

this leads to a whole group of new tough river decisions. If youre 3 betting farily light opp can simply call flop, check turn when you then check behind and pot river (effectivly a shove), or check flop when you check behind c/c a turn bet and pot(push) river meaning we are making pot and stack sized river decisions always in 3 bet pots when the likely hood of our opponent having a big hand is increased although only slightly.
For me that means you are going toi have to 3 bet and stack off with QJ type hands more often, because my first adjustment to your 3 bet strategy would be this.
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Da GOAT
Old 11-20-2007, 08:37 AM #5 (permalink)  
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miffed at 1/2 ppl play 3bet pots badly.

First of all the pot is generally alot smaller than standard 3 bet pots bcoz we are 3betting small amounts.

We arent beat all that often on rivers for calling PSB to be -EV infact they could well be really +EV.

How many hands do we play against that we just CALL flop c/b, turn checks thru, PSB. at 1/2 alot of ppl are still auto raising flops with made hands IMO. Plus i assume the fact our 3bet is small that hands that AQ dominate will PSB river with KQ on Qxxxx board ALOT therefore +EV to call (def not folding).
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Miffed22001
Old 11-20-2007, 05:06 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 im not convinced this will work...
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 11-20-2007, 10:09 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 pretty much the two most important reasons why i think this approach works in low stakes games are

1). My opponents make a lot of mistakes in 3bet pots (ideally more than me), and smaller 3bet sizes allow for more streets to make mistakes on.
2). My opponents' are calling with a wider range of hands preflop, and play pretty much all their hands straightforward (i.e. c/f small pairs when they don't flop a set).



When stacks are deeper than like 125BB, i would revert to more conventional 3bet sizes (13/14BB or larger) to cut down on the implied odds and to set up the hand so i have an opportunity to get the money in on 3 streets.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 11-20-2007, 10:12 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
the only thing wit this is that if you 3 bet even small to say $22 at 1/2nl check the flop for control or even the turn after betting flop, the river is always a PSB for anybody.

this leads to a whole group of new tough river decisions. If youre 3 betting farily light opp can simply call flop, check turn when you then check behind and pot river (effectivly a shove), or check flop when you check behind c/c a turn bet and pot(push) river meaning we are making pot and stack sized river decisions always in 3 bet pots when the likely hood of our opponent having a big hand is increased although only slightly.
For me that means you are going toi have to 3 bet and stack off with QJ type hands more often, because my first adjustment to your 3 bet strategy would be this.

if i knew you were bluffing me with a high frequency on the turn/river, i'd start to slowplay a little more and also call more river bets/shoves with K-xs/A-xs when i have TPWK.
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