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mieczkowusc
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01-28-2009, 04:26 AM
Post subject: 3bet pot with 67s, 5nl
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lurking in BC or IRC
Posts: 225
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (CO) ($5)
Button ($5.63)
SB ($3.94)
BB ($9.21)
UTG ($0.42)
MP ($14.42)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 6 , 7
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, Button raises to $0.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.30
Flop: ($1.07) 5, 4 , 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.35, Hero raises to $1.60, Button raises to $5.13 (All-In), Hero calls $2.90 (All-In)
Turn: ($10.07) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($10.07) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $10.07 | Rake: $0.50
Thoughts? Villain had been 3 betting regularly in position.
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borges
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: la biblioteca de Babel
Posts: 21
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nh
Your draw is so big, I think it is fairly standard to try to get it all in on the flop.
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IhaveTopTop
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 114
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by borges
Your draw is so big, I think it is fairly standard to try to get it all in on the flop.
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This is my thought as well
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xX zorrito Xx
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wellington, FL
Posts: 300
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someone correct me if i'm wrong but i think you're about 55% to hit a straight or a flush by the river in this case...
getting it all in on the flop is the correct play imo...
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amifat
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 92
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
someone correct me if i'm wrong but i think you're about 55% to hit a straight or a flush by the river in this case...
getting it all in on the flop is the correct play imo...
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Yeah if we assume Villian has an overpair without a heart. I believe we have the least Equity if Villian has 2 better hearts or a set or the worst Ah8h.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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I fold this preflop being oop. If villian is 3betting me in position an insane amount I´d rather tighten my CO range and start 4betting wider or just leave.
As played I like your line.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx
someone correct me if i'm wrong but i think you're about 55% to hit a straight or a flush by the river in this case...
getting it all in on the flop is the correct play imo...
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This is not wrong and what most books are teaching I guess. However, what we´re generally looking for is our equity in the pot and not our likelyness to hit a certain hand. Imagine for the sake of the argument, our opponents stacking off range on this flop were only higher FD´s. Although we are 55% to hit our draws, we still have only 39% equity in this pot.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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With these kinds of draws, you want to be the one making the final, big raise, which is why you want to be in position.
XTR dissects the reason we want to be in position, because you're 55% to hit your hand, you're only aboug 39% to win by the river. Which means you need to give your opponent an opportunity to fold here too. As played, that didn't happen.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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lol at having 39% equity
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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XTR1000
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Location: surfing in a room
Posts: 2,188
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Quote:
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Imagine for the sake of the argument, our opponents stacking off range on this flop were only higher FD´s
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just pointing out the difference likelyhood to make a hand vs pot equity.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
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yo
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texa8
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 207
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if ur gunna play those hands OOP to 3bets then thats as good a flop as you can hope for besides the nutes and would have to get it in imo...
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
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fold pre.
flop play is fine - you have good odds against his likely range
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by daven
fold pre.
flop play is fine - you have good odds against his likely range
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Opponent 3-bet less than 3x pre - I think this calls for an implied odds calculation.
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mieczkowusc
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lurking in BC or IRC
Posts: 225
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I honestly would like someone to explain to me how I only have 38% equity in the hand...
If villain is stacking off with 99+, AhKh, and KhQh:
Board: 5h 4c 9h
Dead:
Hand 0: 52.216% 52.22% 00.00% 18093 0.00 { 7h6h }
Hand 1: 47.784% 47.78% 00.00% 16557 0.00 { 99+, AhKh, KhQh }
Even if I changed all of the overpairs to have a backdoor flush:
Board: 5h 4c 9h
Dead:
Hand 0: 50.588% 50.59% 00.00% 8514 0.00 { 7h6h }
Hand 1: 49.412% 49.41% 00.00% 8316 0.00 { AcAh, AdAh, AhAs, KcKh, KdKh, KhKs, QcQh, QdQh, QhQs, JcJh, JdJh, JhJs, TcTh, TdTh, ThTs, 9c9h, 9d9h, 9h9s, AhKh, KhQh }
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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You don't have 38% equity in this hand.. As you showed, against his range, you have more. The example XTR used was "IF" villain "ONLY" had a higher flush draw, then you are likely drawing to only your straight, and that would leave you with somewhere around 38% equity to win. XTR was simply using this example to show that percentage you have to make your hand (that is you have 17 outs against most of his range) is not the same as the equity you have in the pot. Yes you may make your hand here 60% of the time, but it depends on his range what equity you have in the pot.
However, in this instance you have the nut draw, you should be putting your money in as fast as possible here no questions asked tbh.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,518
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mieczkowusc
I honestly would like someone to explain to me how I only have 38% equity in the hand...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mieczkowusc
Villain had been 3 betting regularly in position.
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40% is pessimistic
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Standard imo. (post whoring obviously  )
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mieczkowusc
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lurking in BC or IRC
Posts: 225
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mieczkowusc
I honestly would like someone to explain to me how I only have 38% equity in the hand...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mieczkowusc
Villain had been 3 betting regularly in position.
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40% is pessimistic |
I just realized what everyone was trying to say, but I didn't really understand until a little while ago. If villain is 3 betting a lot in position, he likely is 3 betting light and would really only be continuing against my c/r with a higher flush draw or a set.
So when he gets it in, I likely only have my outs to the straight.
(Couldn't copy from PokerStove cause I'm running it in Wine)
Hand 0: 39.177% (6h7h)
Hand 1: 60.823% (99, AhKh-AhTh, Ah8h, Ah4h-Ah2h, KhQh, QhJh, JhTh)
Sorry I didn't realize it before, but thanks for the feedback. I kinda just had an aha! moment right there.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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sorry mieczkowusc. But your aha moment is off in this instance. XTR wasn't even really aluding as to what he thinks villains range is in this spot inparticularly. He was simply trying to show that the % to make a hand could be different than your actual equity in the pot, and that this depends on villains actual holding. I don't have pokerstove on this computer, but if villain is holding an overpair then you have 15 outs (9 flush, 6 straight). However, if villain has a higher flush draw then you have only your straight draw and cards that will pair you, but now he has the flush cards still + his pair cards, and he is already ahead.
Now as far as your statement about "if he is 3betting light he is likely only continuing with a set or higher flush here". THis is incorrect. For starters, if he is 3betting light he really shouldn't be doing it all that often with 44, 55, 99. Reasoning beind is these are all fine hands to call your raise with, and it's going to be profitable via set hunting. THerefore, turning these hands into a 3bet bluff probably isn't ideal. Secondly, just because someone is 3betting light doesn't mean they don't have the goods sometimes. He would need to be 3betting hands like KK, AA, etc so he would also stack off with those hands on this flop in a 3bet pot.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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I fold pre, I get it in on the flop but I think we established that. Opponents 3betting light means you need to 4bet or fold. Calling with a hand that does not flop well enough, nor often enough is not where you want to be calling this bet. Your AHA moment is actually pretty good, your now thinking a little different and will make a difference in your preflop/flop decisions, run with those thoughts.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
Opponents 3betting light means you need to 4bet or fold.
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nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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If opponent is spewy post flop is 67s not a great hand to call a near min raise with? If he will call light 4-bets then 4-betting light can't be good can it?
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
Opponents 3betting light means you need to 4bet or fold.
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nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh |
I'm not calling light 3bets at $5NL w/67s.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jyms
Opponents 3betting light means you need to 4bet or fold.
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nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh |
I'm not calling light 3bets at $5NL w/67s. |
What if he flops a pair or holds a pair. There's no way he's getting away from a big pair especially - but this is where we would need a read right on whether opponent stacks off light?
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Standard call preflop, if he raises to .60 its an easy fold.. but .50 is that annoying amount idiots at micros raise. They are giving you more than ample implied odds (16-1) for set mining and pretty decent odds for any hand. A call preflop here is not unreasonable.
Played well after the flop.. you got it all in with what is almost certainly the best hand. Worst case scenario he has a set and you still win 42% of the time. More likely he has 1010+ and you are a 56% favorite.
I actually like the way you played this. How many hands are you a 16-1 dog with AA? Ax only?
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