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pokerroomace
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02-15-2007, 10:57 PM
Post subject: 3 betting pf
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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is it profitable to 3bet with any 2 cards pf with position at 50NL or 100NL?
Raising a raiser is such a strong play. Even hands like QQ are scared. The only hands that probably won't be scared are AA and KK. and most likely they'll reraise with these hands and you'll be able to get away.
If they call you have position on the hand and a very high percentage of the time you can cbet the flop and your opponent will fold.
A lot of the time your opponent will fold pf and you'll big up a nice sized pot.
As long as you don't 3bet too frequently pf and have don't have a maniac/loose image - it should be quite a profitable play.
It might not be such a good idea when a player raises UTG. but if it's folded to him in MP or CO and he opens - he could have a wide range of hands. and a wide range that you can make fold.
if CO opens for 4xbb when it's folded to him. i think if you raise to 12xbb on the button - it's profitable with ANY 2 cards.
if you know how your opponents play then it becomes even more profitable (ie if you have stats for 100 hands or more).
is this part of a lot of FTR players strategies? or is it just me?
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bigslikk
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 445
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You're basically asking if bluffing every once in a while, might, perchance, be profitable. The short answer is yes.
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Jupit3r
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 143
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I do it. But not with ANY two cards. I do it against more passive players. If you do it just occasionally why not wait when you have a hand with somewhat value? Like 53 suited. Of course it's about finding a right spot to do it but I think you'll find enough opportunities with marginal value hands.
The weaker and tighter your opponent is the less value must your hand have IMO.
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"I'm conservative, but I'm not a nut about it.", George H. W. Bush
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Doublethe7
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 66
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jupit3r
I do it. But not with ANY two cards. I do it against more passive players. If you do it just occasionally why not wait when you have a hand with somewhat value? Like 53 suited. Of course it's about finding a right spot to do it but I think you'll find enough opportunities with marginal value hands.
The weaker and tighter your opponent is the less value must your hand have IMO.
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so why do you tend to make this preflop-play against a passive player who raises? a pf-raise from a passive player shows a lot more strength than from an aggro player. furthermore it would be hard to fire a second barrel at an passive player if he calls our c-bet.
@op: it's very profitable against light raisers from middle to late position, just don't overdo it. i don't do this with any two cards - i'd like to have a hand with some potential like suited connctors or suited one-gappers to make this play.
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___________________________________
i'm not sure about having my own opinion.
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Jupit3r
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 143
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Doublethe7
so why do you tend to make this preflop-play against a passive player who raises? a pf-raise from a passive player shows a lot more strength than from an aggro player. furthermore it would be hard to fire a second barrel at an passive player if he calls our c-bet.
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Let me be more clear. I meant passive after the flop. Many loose-passives raise quite often before the flop with weakish hands. I like to do it with weak holdings against someone like 30/10/0.5. I make profit against them with crap like low gappers.
Your point about firing a second barrel is right though. I almost never do it against opps like that because once they call my c-bet they almost always have a hand they're not willing to let go easily.
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"I'm conservative, but I'm not a nut about it.", George H. W. Bush
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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To do this not only does it have to be +ev, it has to be more +ev than calling would be. My point is, you should be doing this with the strongest hands that aren't worth a call, or the hands that are just barely worth a call. You are losing value if you do it with too good hands.
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flyingPenguin
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 193
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by 2_Thumbs_Up
To do this not only does it have to be +ev, it has to be more +ev than calling would be. My point is, you should be doing this with the strongest hands that aren't worth a call, or the hands that are just barely worth a call. You are losing value if you do it with too good hands.
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That sounds like tournament speak. To call is to underrepresent your hand. To raise is to represent it as a strong hand. If you don't 3 bet with your strong hands there's no point in 3 betting the weaker ones. If you do so your opponents will know when you are overrepping and you will get owned.
3-bet your strongest hands, and 3-bet your your not-as-strong hands on occasion, and your opponents will not know what you have. The weaker your oppononents, the weaker the holdings you can 3-bet with.
3-betting with any 2 is probably not such a good idea. Just adjust your 3-betting range to the conditions. Sometimes a call with a very strong hand can be profitable.
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zook
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,676
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Just widen your 3-bet range against opponents with PFR% over ~8. Mine is something like TT+, AQo+, AJs+ and if I haven't 3-bet in awhile, occasionally a lower pp.
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by flyingPenguin
That sounds like tournament speak. To call is to underrepresent your hand. To raise is to represent it as a strong hand. If you don't 3 bet with your strong hands there's no point in 3 betting the weaker ones. If you do so your opponents will know when you are overrepping and you will get owned.
3-bet your strongest hands, and 3-bet your your not-as-strong hands on occasion, and your opponents will not know what you have. The weaker your oppononents, the weaker the holdings you can 3-bet with.
3-betting with any 2 is probably not such a good idea. Just adjust your 3-betting range to the conditions. Sometimes a call with a very strong hand can be profitable.
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I was only reffering to when you 3-bet as a bluff. I do 3-bet my top hands for value. I just meant that you shouldn't turn hands that have lots of value in calling into bluffs.
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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i agree that it's better to 3 bet with suited gap connectors than absolute crap. and i will very rarely 3bet with a weak hand like T3. i don't think i ever would.
i was asking a hypothetical question. if you're going to 3bet only 30% of the time - then you might as well make it the 30% of the time that you have 68s or J9o. hands with some potential.
but if you were to do it with hands such as T3 (with the same frequency as you would normally) then i still think that 3betting would be profitable.
ps - big slikk, you are an idiot.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerroomace
ps - big slikk, you are an idiot.
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Don't be an ass. He did answer your initial question. Not the most helpful answer, but not incorrect either.
I would guess you have more fundamental problems to worry about than 3betting pre-flop.
You can't 3bet "with any 2", and 3bet "not too frequently". Without solid post-flop skills, or a read that your villain is terrible 3betting any 2 is probably worse than folding. Loosing your stack one time post-flop will cancel out this play working 25 times if villain folds pre-flop, or 10 times if villain folds on the flop to a cbet.
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