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3-bet pots

  
 
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kfaess
Old 01-13-2009, 01:38 AM     Post subject: 3-bet pots #1 (permalink)  
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 So after playing quite a bit (for me) this week and spending a good amount of time on FTR, I realized that I don't really know what I'm doing in 3-bet pots, both preflop and post flop.

Here are a few examples (I find AK particularly hard to play):

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($11.40)
UTG ($10.30)
Hero (MP) ($10)
Button ($5.70)
SB ($10.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, K
UTG raises to $0.40, Hero raises to $1.20, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.55) 3, 7, J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2.10, UTG calls $2.10

Turn: ($6.75) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($6.75) 3 (2 players)
UTG bets $2, Hero folds

Total pot: $6.75 | Rake: $0.30


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($14.75)
Hero (Button) ($10.20)
SB ($10.40)
BB ($10)
UTG ($17.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, K
UTG raises to $0.40, MP raises to $1.20, 3 folds, UTG raises to $3.10, MP calls $1.90

Flop: ($6.35) 9, 8, K (2 players)
UTG bets $14.15 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $6.35 | Rake: $0.30

In the second hand I folded my AK.

What I'm looking for is not only feedback on these two hands, but some general advice that might be helpful in most situations. Maybe there are some good posts already that people know of?
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kb coolman
Old 01-13-2009, 02:53 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I'll assume a standard TAGG, since you don't have any villan stats.

Hand 1: Raising PF is good here. If I call this, I immediately put you on AA/KK/AK, and I know you missed this flop hard. I'll call your flop once, but checking behind the turn lets me know I have you dominated.

Hand 2: Against a TAGG, I don't like calling the pre-flop 4bet. On the turn, wat? you have TPTK and the nut flush draw. His bet is a panic shove trying to push you off the pot. I'm calling.
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bode
Old 01-13-2009, 03:21 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 hand 1: raise more pre, to $1.40, but otherwise super standard. 3.5x is a good rule of thumb for 3bet size. you also don't need to cbet as much as you would in just a raised pot. 50-60% of the pot is fine.

hand 2: good news, you only made one mistake in this hand. folding. in a 5 handed game, you should be comfortably cold 4betting here, but atleast call. AK is too strong of a hand to be folding here unless one or both villains are HUGE nits. AK wants to see all 5 cards on the board, soembrace variance and learn to get it in preflop.
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bigspenda73
Old 01-13-2009, 03:50 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1

usually just call PF, sometimes 3bet, probably like 75/25 call/3bet

flop bet is too big for a 3bet pot as Bode said. When the pot is already inflated b/c it's a 3bet pot your continuation bet-size doesn't have to be as large b/c the stacks are already diminishing in relation to the pot, thus a bigger 3bet commits you to the pot more and actually gives more value to your opponents continuing range which typically will stack up well vs. ours if they don't call 3bets that lightly and we tend to 3bet light a bit.

Hand 2, folding is fine, 4betting is fine, calling is fine. If you 4bet you need to choose the correct size, my guess is you're at the point where you don't know what that is. I'd say something like $2.75-$3.00 is good if you want to 4bet and yes, we're committed to calling a 5bet shove.
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kfaess
Old 01-13-2009, 04:40 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 Yes,

this:
Quote:
raise more pre, to $1.40, but otherwise super standard. 3.5x is a good rule of thumb for 3bet size. you also don't need to cbet as much as you would in just a raised pot. 50-60% of the pot is fine.
and this:
Quote:
When the pot is already inflated b/c it's a 3bet pot your continuation bet-size doesn't have to be as large b/c the stacks are already diminishing in relation to the pot, thus a bigger 3bet commits you to the pot more and actually gives more value to your opponents continuing range which typically will stack up well vs. ours if they don't call 3bets that lightly and we tend to 3bet light a bit.
is exactly what i was looking for, ty.


Quote:
I'd say something like $2.75-$3.00 is good if you want to 4bet
where does this number come from, is there a standard bet just like bode said 3.5x is standard for a 3-bet?

also,

Quote:
Hand 2: Against a TAGG, I don't like calling the pre-flop 4bet. On the turn, wat? you have TPTK and the nut flush draw. His bet is a panic shove trying to push you off the pot. I'm calling.
sorry, I made this a little confusing but what I meant was that I folded it pre flop in the section where it says '3 folds'
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bode
Old 01-13-2009, 10:57 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 4betting can be even smaller yet. usually 2.5x is plenty, but some people even prefer smaller. Again, if you're looking for a good rule of thumb, default to 2.5x for 4bets. Play around with the sizes though and you'll get the hang of it more and more.
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Robb
Old 01-13-2009, 11:16 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: I agree w/ Bode and Spenda, but one thing has me confused. Bode, you said Hand 1 was "super standard," but I don't think I would fold w/ better than 4 to 1 odds on the river. Not at 10nl where they call down 3bets w/ AT and KQ type hands. Thoughts?
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:00 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Who likes checking behind on the flop in hand 1 and firing on the turn?

Some people expect a cbet so they are readying their c/r on the flop, if we check and they lead the turn we fold without improving. If they check a second time we take it down since turn bets are more menacing than "expected" flop cbets. This is the "delayed" cbet that I sometimes use.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:19 PM #9 (permalink)  
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double post delete plx
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Robb
Old 01-13-2009, 01:28 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Who likes checking behind on the flop in hand 1 and firing on the turn?
I do (with a read). Good point.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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kfaess
Old 01-13-2009, 05:40 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 I actually just found this http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ce-t80684.html helpful thread which I didn't see before I created mine.
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Old 01-13-2009, 06:16 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Who likes checking behind on the flop in hand 1 and firing on the turn?
I do (with a read). Good point.
what kind of a read would you need, that the opponent check/raises?
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bode
Old 01-13-2009, 06:19 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Hand 1: I agree w/ Bode and Spenda, but one thing has me confused. Bode, you said Hand 1 was "super standard," but I don't think I would fold w/ better than 4 to 1 odds on the river. Not at 10nl where they call down 3bets w/ AT and KQ type hands. Thoughts?
yeah he's going to be bluffing some, but i doubt its 20% of the time. most weak/tighties at 10nl aren't betting without atleast a pair here.
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Robb
Old 01-13-2009, 11:18 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Who likes checking behind on the flop in hand 1 and firing on the turn?
I do (with a read). Good point.
what kind of a read would you need, that the opponent check/raises?
I guess I'm just not wanting to let some weak-tight player (who would've folded to the cbet) catch a card.
My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against
 
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kfaess
Old 01-14-2009, 12:35 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 Robb btw I just started reading your op thread and am loving the wealth of information in there (I havn't even got past the first few posts yet). It is so much of a help to beginners.
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