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Monsieur_chat
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12-20-2008, 02:40 PM
Post subject: 2nl TPTK facing raise on the flop...
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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No stats on villain I'm afraid though had seen him call a few bets where it was obvious he was a long way behind. Don't know if that helps us much with this situation...
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($4.16)
UTG+1 ($5.37)
MP1 ($3.44)
Villain (MP2) ($2.88)
CO ($5.42)
Button ($5.06)
SB ($4.13)
Hero (BB) ($3.88)
Preflop: Hero is BB with  , 
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Villain raises to $0.08, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.24, 1 fold, Villain calls $0.16
Flop: ($0.51)  ,  ,  (2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, Villain raises to $0.50
Hero...??
Any comments and / or thoughts on the optimum play much appreciated. Thanks.
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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P.S For what little it's worth I think I should have made it .35 instead of .25 on the flop....
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Blazing_Saddler
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Walsall
Posts: 65
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat
P.S For what little it's worth I think I should have made it .35 instead of .25 on the flop....
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Bet the pot on the flop. My guess is he thinks you are weak here.
I I think a solid re raise is in order on that flop. What do you think he has that is beating you ?
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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I'll say what my thoughts were after a few more replies as I don't want to give hints as to what I eventually did. Any other thoughts on how to react to villain's raise?
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Blazing_Saddler
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Walsall
Posts: 65
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat
I'll say what my thoughts were after a few more replies as I don't want to give hints as to what I eventually did. Any other thoughts on how to react to villain's raise?
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Thats it, brush my post under the carpet 
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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What do you think your opponent will call you with if you make a solid re-raise on a flop like this? We're in a 3bet pot also, bear that in mind 
I think I call here. Either we're way ahead of him or we're totally crushed by sets or AA, no need to raise imo.
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Blazing_Saddler
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Walsall
Posts: 65
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by killerkebab
What do you think your opponent will call you with if you make a solid re-raise on a flop like this? We're in a 3bet pot also, bear that in mind
I think I call here. Either we're way ahead of him or we're totally crushed by sets or AA, no need to raise imo. |
At $2NL, Could be KQ, KJ, K10, and any Kxs all more likely than AA and KK in my opinion. 55 is the main hand I would be worried about.
At the level he is playing, he will also get called down with lower PP.
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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OK, so I'll tell you the awful decision I made lol.
I folded.
In mitigation this was because I'd literally just read aokrongly's post on bet sizing with top pair where he said bet half to 2/3 the pot on all streets, if you're raised then more often than not you're beat.
Now admittedly I'd still probably have won the hand if I'd bet 2/3rds on the flop (as I normally would, I've no idea what made me bet so light) but that was the reason why, when he raised me all I could think was trips 
Knew I'd made the wrong play the minute I pressed the button. Felt even worse when he told me he'd had AQ and had read me for weak lol. Obv at this level Aces or Kings would reraise me before the flop.
Nevermind, I finished the session up a BI and will learn for next time.
Flame away 
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I don't hate the 1/2 pot bet... this board is as dry as it gets, most of his range misses and certainly you don't mind a call from 66-QQ, or maybe even just A high. But realize that it screams weakness, so I wouldn't be overly impressed when you get raised. I would flat call and bet the turn. If he flat calls then, you can be pretty certain he has a smaller pair. If you want to play it safe, just c/c turn and river.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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HarleyGuy13
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1,226
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I to don't hate your .5 pot bet. I'm also not at all afraid to come back over the top of him after his raise. You may be up against a set but I would think more like a weaker Kx or JJ, QQ, AJ, AQ
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"You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it |
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oskar
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
Posts: 2,452
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I think by 3-betting you're folding out pretty much everything that you beat, Harley.
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The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Flop bet is absolutely perfect, PF is a little too small
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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oh, in terms of how to continue postflop, play the hand in a way where you gain the most from worse hands. What's the best way to do this?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat
I folded.
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yikes
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mieczkowusc
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lurking in BC or IRC
Posts: 225
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
oh, in terms of how to continue postflop, play the hand in a way where you gain the most from worse hands. What's the best way to do this?
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Would it be to flat-call the min-raise, check-call the turn, and check-raise the river?
Or just flat the min-raise, and check-raise the turn?
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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The flop bet is fine, especially if we consider how boring the flop is and the fact that we're in a 3bet pot. Both of these are good reasons to bet less than we usually would, and why half pot is fine.
What I think would be a big mistake is to shove/3bet big over this guy's raise. Since this flop is boring, there isn't much of anything that calls us that we beat unless you have a read that your opponent is crazy enough to call 3bets with Kx and stack off when they hit a pair - if you had that read you probably wouldn't have folded
That said I think it is also a mistake to fold. His range is polarized imo. On one side there are huge hands that he has you crushed with, and on the other are all the hands which you crush and bluffs. We can still be ahead and of course we're getting a good price. We can call here and see what he does on the turn, since this is where we'll get a good feel for his range - most villains I've come across at least don't bet/raise lightly on two or more streets.
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killerkebab
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 149
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mieczkowusc
Would it be to flat-call the min-raise, check-call the turn, and check-raise the river?
Or just flat the min-raise, and check-raise the turn?
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Personally at this point I check/call both coming streets. Depending on villains line on the turn/river I may not even call
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i call anf c/c turn
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat
I folded.
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yikes |
I know
I think this is the thing I'm struggling with now in my development. I have a solid understanding of preflop starting hands and a reasonably good understanding of betting and bet sizing PF and on the flop when I miss or when I hit. This is enough to slowly grind out reasonable profits at the micro stakes. But I'd prefer to be crushing them.
I think the next stage is for me to learn to logically and confidently work out a range of hands the villain can be on INSTEAD of just thinking in terms of "ahead" or "behind" and then panicking and assuming that because he's fired back at me he has to be ahead. Any help with simplifying this process or implementing it in live fire situations would be really helpful, especially from the likes of spenda et al. I know it's something you guys do in your sleep but a newbie action plan on hand ranges would be SO helpful.
For example if I'd just stopped for a moment and thought logically along the lines of: At these stakes villain holding AA or KK is usually itching to get it all in preflop, I could have reasonably put him on a lesser hand than this which I'm probably crushing (as was actually the case). It's just forcing oneself to do this in the heat of the moment that is difficult for the newbie.
Thanks for all the input guys, I love this place
There is nothing wrong with making a mistake. There is something wrong with repeating it. That's where FTR comes in
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how about:
I'm getting 6:1 so if he has any chance of being behind here at all it's a mandatory call? Especially since some hands like KQ are raising for value here.
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wesrman
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 654
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Whats your name on stars???
I started grinding again and im starting from scratch at 2NL.
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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I dont hate your 1/2 pot bet on the flop, however you should reraise him again once he raised you
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wesrman
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
I dont hate your 1/2 pot bet on the flop, however you should reraise him again once he raised you
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Hey TLR.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
I dont hate your 1/2 pot bet on the flop, however you should reraise him again once he raised you
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stick to HORSE yo
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TLR
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
I dont hate your 1/2 pot bet on the flop, however you should reraise him again once he raised you
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stick to HORSE yo |
Whats your flop play ?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TLR
I dont hate your 1/2 pot bet on the flop, however you should reraise him again once he raised you
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stick to HORSE yo |
Whats your flop play ? |
call and check turn fo sho, never folding
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bpurvis2
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 35
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you made it .25 and he RR you here on flop A either he has a set and dominates you or B he is a donk and called with a weak K thinking he was good or hit his lower kicker for two pair.
in 2NL you never know so I probably would of shoved allinon him and if he had his set or two pair then he has me but a nice re rasie or shove would be right in this situation thats just my though.
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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i think i'd just call and c/c turn and river. with his min raise, he probably isn't very good at getting value so we probably will get a pretty cheap showdown
and fold to river shove of course
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
and fold to river shove of course
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If we must end up folding (presumably to a set of fives) is there a cheaper way of doing it?
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wesrman
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 654
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I dont think im folding this at 2NL. I like Spendas play here cuz you would be astounded at what people show up with in these spots.
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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I know. The more I think about this hand the sillier I feel for not just stopping and realizing the painfully obvious fact that there's a good chance I was crushing him.
By the way Wes, was the PStars handle request aimed at me? Just saw your Op, I'm at a similar stage on the grind to the first $100 (although I know you're far far more experienced than me. What's made you decide to start over...?
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wesrman
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 654
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat
I know. The more I think about this hand the sillier I feel for not just stopping and realizing the painfully obvious fact that there's a good chance I was crushing him.
By the way Wes, was the PStars handle request aimed at me? Just saw your Op, I'm at a similar stage on the grind to the first $100 (although I know you're far far more experienced than me. What's made you decide to start over...? |
Ya i meant you, but im not far more expierienced than anyone..lol. Im not even very good.
I quit for a long time (withdrew all my money) and i dont want to deposit so i borrowed and payed it back so i can play for free..
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Monsieur_chat
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London
Posts: 254
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Nh wp lol. Will pm my PStars handle.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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the only way he beats you on the flop is with a set or 2 pair. Folding is very bad. You should reraise. Now bet sizing is the one of the hardest things to learn in nl. So just be safe and go with 3/4
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