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2NL, QQ in MP1 facing min re-raise from unknown villain

  
 
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daviddem
Old 12-12-2009, 09:41 PM     Post subject: 2NL, QQ in MP1 facing min re-raise from unknown villain #1 (permalink)  
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 I'd like to replay the entire hand here, street by street. Villain arrived at the table at the same time as me, 10 hands ago. He has limped in a couple of hands but folded on the flop. He has folded preflop about 8 hands out of 10. He has also won a hand just before this one, but I missed it due to a disconnect (was playing at the airport on the free wifi). As for me, this is the first hand I got involved into.

Preflop:
Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($2.12)
SB ($0.19)
BB ($0.76)
UTG ($2.78)
UTG+1 ($0.53)
Hero (MP1) ($1.94)
MP2 ($0.44)
Villain (MP3) ($1.32)
CO ($0.61)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.09, 1 fold, Villain raises to $0.16, 5 folds

Hero?
(edit: OMG: only now do I realize that this was a pot limit table! I thought it was no limit all along!)
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Belt
Old 12-13-2009, 12:13 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Lets see what we know... This is 2PL, villain is short stacked, his 3bet sizing sucks and he has position on you. What do you think his range might be? I think its wide enough for you to happily get it in...

I think it would be much easier for you to play your hands if you put your opponent on a range.
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spoonitnow
Old 12-13-2009, 01:04 AM #3 (permalink)  
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rpm
Old 12-13-2009, 08:09 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 there are two hands in poker which are favourite to yours, we don't know much about this guy, but let's assume because its 2nl and he doesn't actively keep his stack topped up that he's not very good at poker and probably 3bets a range of any two pretty ones and any pair 99+. if it was nl as you thought then as played i probably 4b enough that we can get it on any flop when called (maybe like 50-60c) or ship it if i think villain will call with a wide enough range preflop. because its pot limit i just 4bet pot and hope to get it in, or at least get as much of the effective stacks in preflop when we rate to have the best hand more often than not

the hand range i created may not be accurate, depending on the player, but even if he 3bets a range as tight as TT+,AK then it is still +EV to try and get it in preflop v this range, especially seeing as he is unlikely to fold any of the hands in that range to a 4bet, because its 2nl
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daviddem
Old 12-13-2009, 02:31 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 OK apologies for not putting opp on a range in the OP, I'll know for next time.

I know it is 2NL and anything goes, but since this villain has not been limping every hand like lots do, and in the absence of a better read, I tend to give him a tight 3-bet range. [TT+, AK] seems fair. Now I realize that with QQ I am (slightly) ahead of this range, but is it really a good enough reason to 4-bet, which at 2NL is likely to result in a 5 bet and/or preflop all in, only to see an ace and/or a king show up on the flop?

In other words, is it outrageously weak to give him some credit for the 3-bet, just call and re-evaluate on the flop, with the intention of leading out if no A or K shows up?

Surely, we don't always want to go all in preflop if we think we are a bit ahead of opp's range, do we?
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daviddem
Old 12-13-2009, 09:10 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I did a small EV calculation exercise to try and show that it may make sense to call and see the flop.

Let's compare the two actions:
1) go all-in preflop against this range (villain calls for sure)
2) call and c/f if the flop has an A or K (except if it has a Q as well of course). Go all in if no A or K on the flop (villain calls for sure).

1) Rake is 4.8%. 52.3% chance to win with QQ against the range. EV=0.952*0.523*$1.46 + 0.476*(-$1.23)= $0.1414

2) Same rake. There is about 33% chance of a flop with A or K and no Q. If no A or K on the flop, there is roughly 60% chance to win with QQ against this range (the number may not be precise, but pretty close).
EV=0.33*(-$0.07) + 0.67*(0.952*0.58*$1.46 + 0.42*(-$1.23))=$0.1709

So it seems +EV not to go all in preflop (since we have no fold equity). If it was, why would we even play post-flop? By the same token, it makes sense not to go all in on the flop, but rather make bets sensibly sized.

I don't mean that re-raising does not make sense here. It would make sense if we had fold equity and/or if it would allow us to better define villain's range. Not sure at all it is the case at 2NL.
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daviddem
Old 12-13-2009, 11:34 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 I am still listening to arguments about re-raising preflop, but in the meantime, here is the flop:

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($2.12)
SB ($0.19)
BB ($0.76)
UTG ($2.78)
UTG+1 ($0.53)
Hero (MP1) ($1.94)
MP2 ($0.44)
Villain (MP3) ($1.32)
CO ($0.61)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.09, 1 fold, Villain raises to $0.16, 5 folds, Hero calls $0.07

Flop: ($0.37) 3, J, 5 (2 players)

What's your line here?
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Hoopy
Old 12-13-2009, 11:50 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 I can see his 3 bet range looking something like this {88+,ATo+,KQ} i.e. wider than you think. Calling 3 bets out of position isn't great + it's hard to continue if an A or K is on the flop. Since he probably stack off with most of that I 4bet and call a shove.

On the flop I lead for full and try to get it in.
 
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daviddem
Old 12-14-2009, 12:19 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 OK. Seems like the average opp's 3-betting range is quite wide at the micro cash games then. If that is the case, indeed 4-betting and calling a shove makes full sense. Bear in mind that I am very new to micro-stakes cash games. I am more used to the micro sit'n go's on FTP, where the game seems generally tighter than in the few cash games I've seen so far (except for the usual 1 to 3 donks at the average $1 SNG table).
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Donkafelts
Old 12-14-2009, 02:26 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddem
OK. Seems like the average opp's 3-betting range is quite wide at the micro cash games then. If that is the case, indeed 4-betting and calling a shove makes full sense. Bear in mind that I am very new to micro-stakes cash games. I am more used to the micro sit'n go's on FTP, where the game seems generally tighter than in the few cash games I've seen so far (except for the usual 1 to 3 donks at the average $1 SNG table).
Actually for winning players 3 bet rangers get wider as you go up the limits (3 bet bluffing is introduced). SnG players are way tighter because the goal is different. In SnG's just sticking around as time goes on has value because you are just trying to survive. To demonstrated lets say hypothetically that you just sat down at a SnG where you think you have an edge and a cash game where you think you have an edge. You are presented with the same situation. Two players shove into your BB with AKs (somehow you just know) and you have QQ on both tables. At the SnG you fold waiting for the money and looking for far better spots. At the cash game you snap call all day because any small edge is fine. If you lose, rebuy and stack the guy.
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daviddem
Old 12-14-2009, 03:49 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Actually for winning players 3 bet rangers get wider as you go up the limits (3 bet bluffing is introduced).
You're right but I think at the micro cash games, the optimal style is tight ABC poker right? Wouldn't want to try to 3-bet bluff in those games...

Anyway, for this hand, which I know I played wrong, I should strongly have considered 4 betting pre-flop, and I also should have bet the flop stronger than I did. Now comes the turn, and probably my previous poor plays put me in this tough situation here. But as played, what do you do here?

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($2.12)
SB ($0.19)
BB ($0.76)
UTG ($2.78)
UTG+1 ($0.53)
Hero (MP1) ($1.94)
MP2 ($0.44)
Villain (MP3) ($1.32)
CO ($0.61)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.09, 1 fold, Villain raises to $0.16, 5 folds, Hero calls $0.07

Flop: ($0.37) 3, J, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, Villain calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.87) A (2 players)
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ljove
Old 12-14-2009, 04:26 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Call for the flop.He can raise with AK,AQ and any pocket pair.
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microgrinder
Old 12-15-2009, 06:00 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I'd raise max preflop and pot bet on flop. I'd also happily get it in preflop if he shoved on me. As for turn I think I would actually just C/F unless he bets really small.
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PhilMC
Old 12-15-2009, 08:26 PM #14 (permalink)  

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I noticed that many people at these stakes tend to midraise weaker pps, so I might put on something like AQs+, 33, 55, 66-JJ... Not sure what to do on turn, either b/f or c/f, most of the time I am going with c/f...

I know, that b/f might seem a bit odd, but if we just check, he has no reason to check behind, because that Ace miss a big deal of our range and we are not likely to slowplay some serious staff on a wet board like this. With c/f we just give up this pot.

But I'd rather ship it PF
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daviddem
Old 12-16-2009, 04:10 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Yes, I should definitely have played it more aggro preflop and on the flop. Now my plan on the turn was also to c/f. But he checked behind. Either he doesn't like the ace or he is trapping. Maybe it is weak, but I decided that the situation was stinking, so I c/f the river. In hindsight, this is all due to my bad plays preflop and on the flop.

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($2.12)
SB ($0.19)
BB ($0.76)
UTG ($2.78)
UTG+1 ($0.53)
Hero (MP1) ($1.94)
MP2 ($0.44)
Villain (MP3) ($1.32)
CO ($0.61)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.09, 1 fold, Villain raises to $0.16, 5 folds, Hero calls $0.07

Flop: ($0.37) 3, J, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.25, Villain calls $0.25

Turn: ($0.87) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks

River: ($0.87) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $0.43, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.87 | Rake: $0.05
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microgrinder
Old 12-16-2009, 08:31 PM #16 (permalink)  
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B/F > C/C > C/F on the river IMO.

Against an unknown donk anyways...I'm not giving his min 3bet pre a lot of credit. I think he has a lot of junk here. I honestly see him showing up on river a lot here with KJ, QJ, mid pocket pairs ect...where he was like "oh i got checked to twice...I better bet :P"

I like bet-folding better though, cause overall I think you'll extract more value.
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PhilMC
Old 12-18-2009, 12:36 PM #17 (permalink)  

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bet a pot on flop, with Jx , FDs, maybe even lower pps he is calling anyway, bcs these donks dont give a crap about pot odds... I agree with microgrinder, I am definitely b/f river... I am putting him on somethin like 33-JJ, some suited and connected cards, Jx, Ax, sometimes 8x
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Hoopy
Old 12-18-2009, 01:25 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Hoopy is an unknown quantity at this point
 B/f for $0.50, allows us to extract value from his KJ type of hands and if he raises it's an easy fold.

C/c a reasonable bet isn't bad either, your sizing on the flop is like a cbet and then you check twice. He likely perceives you to be weak and thinks "ZOMFG I have a pair BET".
 
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