Originally Posted by JoeHaw

Hand 1- Why wouldn't you cbet here? I understand you have SOME showdown value, but winning the pot right here is way more +EV. Even with an ace or a king villain is making a hard decision, as he figures he's probably dominated a lot- I think he's folding 65% right away, and 25% more to a second bullet.

preflop hand 1- I would raise for sure here. You probably wouldn't think twice about raising AJs, right? If the guy is a nit, than sure, limp behind- but from what I've seen the average 2NLer is 48/6- and you're simply crushing his range.

preflop hand 2- I still don't know whether or not its right to limp or raise UTG+1 w a limper w the small pp- but I think you have to call- the implied odds are just too good.

As for suited aces, I've been limping them even from EP because I'm confident in my ability to lay it down when I hit an ace, but this may be a huge leak in my game- I'm not sure I'm really making enough on my flushes to make up for all the limp folds.

As you know, I'm a beginning player too- just my two cents.

Originally Posted by nish81

with hand 1, I was thinking that I shouldn't c-bet all the time to make them transparent, and if there was any sort of hand I wanted to forsake a c-bet with it'd be this hand. but at 2nl should i just be c-betting everything?

Originally Posted by nish81

but at 2nl should i just be c-betting everything?

Originally Posted by oskar

88
I play it the same against most opponents. If it comes JT2, T23, A57, K75, I'd rather c-bet because you get a lot of random broadways to fold that still have some decent equity against your hand... so it would be both in order to protect my hand and to get value from weaker hands - lower pairs are going to look you up.
On that flop, the worst hands that call you: broadways with inside straights, flushdraws... still have decent equity... so you're betting as a pure bluff, but you're still getting looked up with a lot of crap, and it complicates later streets.

There's something you shouldn't be thinking about @ 2NL but anyways: There is very little in his limp/calling range that can stand 3 barrels, but you have to keep draws in mind and such, and you need a villain that can fold tpnk... soooo.. not recommended, but something to keep in mind. Maybe once in 3000 hands there is one that I think I can triple barrel.
I'd just take it to showdown...


ATs - I open after 3 limpers if there's no 5/0 or something stupid like that among them... or in general, if there are one or two of them who DON'T have an open raising range and a vpip < 20 I'd rather limp behind because you can get in trouble.
I base that on what I pull out of my ass, so take that for whatever.

33 - I just open fold that UTG+1... it might be marginally profitable to limp if the table is very loose passive. It's not something I would hang on to when you move up in stakes. Someone with half a brain can see your stats and put you on a very narrow range there. If you can call depends entirely on MP3's opening range. Unless he's an über-nit, I think it's a fold.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

I'd rather cbet this flop with 88 than cbet 6c7c8c with AdTh.

Originally Posted by oskar

Nooo... you can c-bet everything, and it won't make you a loosing player. That doesn't mean it's always right.
I c-bet 55%, but I have some more aggro opponents who will play back and won't have an entirely retarded preflop calling range. I still wouldn't c-bet everything at the micros, but you can c-bet a lot more I guess.

Originally Posted by nish81

Yeah, but on a K73r flop, I'd rather c-bet QJs than 88, because 88 has some showdown value, and if we c-bet everything then we're exploitable. I'm going from the assumption that i shouldn't c-bet every hand, and deciding which hands to rule out, and i'd rather rule out hands that might hold up well if checked to showdown

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

Ummm but K73r isn't the board in the 88 hand so what's your point?

No, you shouldn't cbet every flop. But for me, the decision is as much to do with the texture of the flop and whether you were the Pre-Flop aggressor as what showdown value your 88 has.

Originally Posted by nish81

Yeah, but on a K73r flop, I'd rather c-bet QJs than 88, because 88 has some showdown value, and if we c-bet everything then we're exploitable.

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

Gah. No.

What I am saying is this. In your 88 hand the flop hits a big part of your perceived raising range, or what your opponent is likely to put you on. Therefore it's often +ev to cbet.

This is because of two things:

1: Your opponent is likely limp calling cards which miss the best of this flop.

2: Your opponent will often believe you've hit the best part of this flop (i.e you're holding an ace) on the flop because you raised pre. He will therefore often fold, even when he may not be as far behind your 88 as he thinks (TJo etc), or he may even fold a better hand than yours (9T - 9Q, TT, Kx etc).

What if you check behind with your 88 and then a ten or a queen comes on the turn and your opponent bets? You know nothing more about your opponent's holding and suddenly your showdown value isn't looking so hot. Win the hand now, on the flop, while you still have decent fold equity because you were the PFR.

On the other hand, I created an opposite situation to illustrate. If you raise AdTh and then see a 6c7c8c flop two things happen:

1: This hits a fairly decent part of villain's limp calling / calling range of mid-pairs, suited connectors etc.
2: It completely whiffs the raising range your opponent (if he's paying any attention whatsoever) will put you on. He is therefore unlikely to believe you caught anything when you cbet.

This hypothetical situation would therefore not be such a good place to cbet.

See what I'm saying?

Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

I think we fold out a number of better hands than ours by cbetting.

I understand your point though, I'm just not sure what we're hoping for on later streets if we check behind? I don't see that we get any more money out of weaker hands and I think by the end of the hand we're hating having to call a bet on the river if our opponent thinks we look weak aren't we?

Originally Posted by oskar

This shit is why I don't even bother with the BC most of the time. I'm not the one struggling with microstakes... I'm trying to point you in the right direction. What I'm trying to show you is not what the right decision is but how you're supposed to analyze the situation... and you do that by giving him a PF range and dividing it into calling and folding hands according to board texture. Then you can decide what hands you can bet for value, and if and what hands you can bet as a bluff.

Originally Posted by oskar

nish, I think you're starting to make the very common mistake of putting your opponent on a brain. Most people do not think about your hand, let alone your range. They're just like: "hmmm... let's see... what do I have here?"
When in doubt assume your opponents are less thinking. It leads to the right decisions more often.

Originally Posted by JoeHaw

nish, I don't think you need to be thinking of balancing at 2NL. You should be thinking certain flop textures are cbet 100% and others are 0%- not 75%cbet/25%check and 25%cbet/75%check.

You're really giving your opponents too much credit.

And btw, I'd have to say I agree w/ just about everything monsieur_chat has said so far- especially about the importance of not being afraid to make mistakes.

Originally Posted by nish81

thanks for the tips, hopefully I play a bit better with suited aces. good for flush draws IMO.

with hand 1, I was thinking that I shouldn't c-bet all the time to make them transparent, and if there was any sort of hand I wanted to forsake a c-bet with it'd be this hand. but at 2nl should i just be c-betting everything?