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2nl missed betting opportunities?
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nish81
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06-24-2009, 09:32 PM
Post subject: 2nl missed betting opportunities?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 295
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hand 1:
I put villain on a TT-QQ, AJs+, KQs, AQo+. So I should have realised that 7x is a very small part of his range by the turn, and bet there right? 
however, he's 35/35 over 20 hands, so that could open his range up to include 7x. but then that'd also mean i'd get more worse hands too and my general equity would increase right? and i could get more worse hands calling a valuebet on the turn.
$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
7 players
Stacks:
UTG DrakonAlex ($0.47)
UTG+1 grzybula ($2.88)
MP slothinator9 ($1.25)
CO colaa33 ($0.73)
BTN ich 325 ($1.34)
SB aLx200k ($1.79)
BB Hero ($1.91)
Pre-flop: ($0.03, 7 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, grzybula raises to $0.08, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.22, grzybula calls $0.14
Flop: ($0.45, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.28, grzybula calls $0.28
Turn: ($1.01, 2 players)
Hero checks, grzybula checks
River: ($1.01, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.48, grzybula folds
Final Pot: $1.01
Hero wins $1.44 ( won +$0.46 )
grzybula lost -$0.50
hand 2:
my first mistake here is probably open limping preflop, instead of raising to 4x right?
also, I think I should have bet the flop for about 0.06 - pricing out flush draws, and a trip would probably raise me back. thing is, i had some compulsion to see what the last player would do..
$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Stacks:
UTG BAD KOOL ($1.12)
UTG+1 VldrKl ($3.00)
MP1 Rainer9268 ($2.78)
MP2 Hero ($1.88)
MP3 JR9477 ($4.91)
CO oeftc90 ($2.38)
BTN hinq ($4.17)
SB teknotomas ($3.67)
BB Ryukyu ($4.79)
Pre-flop: ($0.03, 9 players) Hero is MP2
3 folds, Hero calls $0.02, 1 fold, oeftc90 calls $0.02, 1 fold, teknotomas calls $0.01, Ryukyu checks
Flop: ($0.08, 4 players)
teknotomas checks, Ryukyu checks, Hero checks, oeftc90 checks
Turn: ($0.08, 4 players)
teknotomas checks, Ryukyu checks, Hero bets $0.06, 1 fold, teknotomas folds, Ryukyu folds
Final Pot: $0.08
cheers
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<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.
JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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1) bet turn ldo
2) raise pre or fold, probably bet flop yes.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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hand 1: i personally raise more pre, but i'm not certain your sizing is bad. probably same exact advice for flop because that board actually isn't really that wet considering villain's range (btw 35/35 doesn't tell us much over 20 hands so i wouldn't treat him like a loose player). logic for checking turn would be to underrep our hand so HE doesn't think that WE have the straight. there's no reason to believe he sucked out on us. w/o reads i bet turn because we don't like a lot of river cards, and villain's paying us off with worse.
hand 2: never open limp pre. and never limp QJs. i probably fold pre, but i could see 4xbb'in' this shiz. if this pot were heads up i would bet it because many worse hands and draws will call. since it's 4-way and you're in LP you should be betting this without putting any thought to it
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Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. 
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nish81
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 295
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cool, thanks guys
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<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.
JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
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wonderland
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 478
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hand 1: a 3bet should be 3 or 4 times his original bet. With KK @ 2nl you can be happy to get it all on asap. So make the 3bet about .24 or .30 ish if he's an idiot.
DO NOT be scared of his flop call. Bet about 35 or 45 on that flop if he's a station. Bet 45 also if there are two suits the same. As is, rainbow, don't stress too much.
Turn, bet $1 or shove. You're missing value if you did this like 100 times in a row. About 20 times he'd have 2 pair, straight, flush etc. but if you acted like that 100% of the time, you'd be losing money or at least be missing money you should have made.
hand 2: nooo, no open limping with QJs. Open for 4xbb. Why check that flop?! unless you wanted to fool people into thinking you didn't have a hand. Fuck that .6c bet... thing is, coz you didn't raise, no one gives a shit about their cards coz they have nothing invested. Raise it, then bet 3/4 pot with the J and after that, real thinking comes into it and i can't speculate further without a specific scenario.
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hand 1:
you're putting him on a really tight range
so instead put him on random shit: a2s+, 22+, any suited connector above 54s, any two broadways
then figure out what he can have on the flop, he calls with pretty much everything but the lowest pps and the lowest suited connectors
so he can definitely have a 7
don't let yourself say "this is his range, so he never has a 7" because you won't believe it yourself... just admit that he can have a seven, but it's not going to have it that often
but holy shit he probably has way more hands like AJ or JT that have ten billion outs against you so bet the turn
hand 2: you're not betting a certain amount to "price out" flush draws
you're betting that amount to price them in
in fact flush draws will pay you full pot on each street, but don't bet 2x pot to "price them out" - because you want them to call
and you can safely fold if they hit because your hand is not that strong anyway
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nish81
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wonderland
hand 1: a 3bet should be 3 or 4 times his original bet. With KK @ 2nl you can be happy to get it all on asap. So make the 3bet about .24 or .30 ish if he's an idiot.
DO NOT be scared of his flop call. Bet about 35 or 45 on that flop if he's a station. Bet 45 also if there are two suits the same. As is, rainbow, don't stress too much.
Turn, bet $1 or shove. You're missing value if you did this like 100 times in a row. About 20 times he'd have 2 pair, straight, flush etc. but if you acted like that 100% of the time, you'd be losing money or at least be missing money you should have made.
hand 2: nooo, no open limping with QJs. Open for 4xbb. Why check that flop?! unless you wanted to fool people into thinking you didn't have a hand. Fuck that .6c bet... thing is, coz you didn't raise, no one gives a shit about their cards coz they have nothing invested. Raise it, then bet 3/4 pot with the J and after that, real thinking comes into it and i can't speculate further without a specific scenario.
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Thanks I think I'm being a bit too scared of variance, and missing out on value as a result.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
hand 1:
you're putting him on a really tight range
so instead put him on random shit: a2s+, 22+, any suited connector above 54s, any two broadways
then figure out what he can have on the flop, he calls with pretty much everything but the lowest pps and the lowest suited connectors
so he can definitely have a 7
don't let yourself say "this is his range, so he never has a 7" because you won't believe it yourself... just admit that he can have a seven, but it's not going to have it that often
but holy shit he probably has way more hands like AJ or JT that have ten billion outs against you so bet the turn
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He'd open in EP with mid suited connectors and all suited aces? :S really?
Quote:
hand 2: you're not betting a certain amount to "price out" flush draws
you're betting that amount to price them in
in fact flush draws will pay you full pot on each street, but don't bet 2x pot to "price them out" - because you want them to call
and you can safely fold if they hit because your hand is not that strong anyway
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Right - what i mean by pricing them out is betting enough so it's -ev (for them) if they call, but not so much that they dont call
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<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.
JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
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this is NL2
how do you know he knows that he's not "supposed to" open wide from the EP? he probably opens like 20% from every position or something
god knows how many people come into this forum posting stats with same pfr from every position but BB
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nish81
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 295
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I guess you're right. maybe at such low stakes it's better to just play my own hand unless i've got good stats on the opponent, since general rules of reading don't apply as much?
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<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.
JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by nish81
I guess you're right. maybe at such low stakes it's better to just play my own hand unless i've got good stats on the opponent, since general rules of reading don't apply as much?
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not really, you can still put them on ranges
but put them on really wide ranges, way wider than you would play
generally people have wide calling ranges and tight raising ranges
but this guy opens every hand he plays, or at least that's what happened the last 6 hands he played so I'm going to assume he follows the advice "pump it or dump it"
but post-flop I would still make the assumption that his raising range will be too tight and I'd probably fold to a turn raise if he makes one
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nish81
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nish81
I guess you're right. maybe at such low stakes it's better to just play my own hand unless i've got good stats on the opponent, since general rules of reading don't apply as much?
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not really, you can still put them on ranges
but put them on really wide ranges, way wider than you would play
generally people have wide calling ranges and tight raising ranges
but this guy opens every hand he plays, or at least that's what happened the last 6 hands he played so I'm going to assume he follows the advice "pump it or dump it"
but post-flop I would still make the assumption that his raising range will be too tight and I'd probably fold to a turn raise if he makes one
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you're right thanks!
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<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.
JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
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