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2nl: KK river shove when FD completes and board pairs

  
 
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nish81
Old 07-18-2009, 03:01 PM     Post subject: 2nl: KK river shove when FD completes and board pairs #1 (permalink)  
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so i'm posting this hand to get criticised and never do this again, since i did it twice in one session even after being told of my mistake the first hand..

villain is 67/7. i have history - my first mistaken river shove was also against this villain, TPGK shoved, and he showed me two pair. so there's that factor too

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($2.46)
MP1 ($1.20)
MP2 ($5)
CO ($1.85)
Button ($3.45)
Hero (SB) ($2.19)
BB ($2.64)
UTG ($0.92)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 bets $0.04, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.08

with a pfr of 7 he's opening pocket pairs and broadways i guess, but he likes calling a lot preflop so im 3betting for value/iso here i guess. been told that my 3b should have been bigger, to about .18?

Flop: ($0.28) 4, J, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, UTG+1 calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.68) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.45, UTG+1 calls $0.45

- definitely ahead on the flop and turn I think, but should i be betting more to protect against draws?


River: ($1.58) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.42 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $1.42

- here's my problem. board pairs and flush draw completes: does villain call this with anything less than a flush/trips/boat?

Total pot: $4.42 | Rake: $0.20
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Old 07-18-2009, 06:51 PM #2 (permalink)  
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villain calls with J7
but actually I'd check/decide river and consider folding to a shove because he's passive, but call a tiny bet

he'll sometimes bet tiny with a flush or with a marginal hand or sometimes as a bluff
it probably has more value because his range is like straights, flushes, and Jx

by shoving we'll fold out T9 and other crap that might take a tiny stab on the river
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Ragnar4
Old 07-18-2009, 07:27 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Yeah shoving is bad because way more better hands call you than worse hands.

But you still have a good hand that's worth a showdown.

You could, check if you think your opponent is mentally retarded and will check with the intention of calling

You could like do this crazy tiny valuebet.

Folding isn't really a good decision, neither is shoving, so getting out of the hand as cheaply as possible is the most important thing here.... do whatever is necessary to achieve that.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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nish81
Old 07-18-2009, 07:34 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
villain calls with J7
but actually I'd check/decide river and consider folding to a shove because he's passive, but call a tiny bet

he'll sometimes bet tiny with a flush or with a marginal hand or sometimes as a bluff
it probably has more value because his range is like straights, flushes, and Jx

by shoving we'll fold out T9 and other crap that might take a tiny stab on the river
So then, shouldn't we make a small blocking bet rather chan check?
- if his hand is total rubbish he'll fold, and he's checking behind us anyways
- his calling range is likely to be wider than his betting range with hands that we beat, so we're getting more value out of hands that we beat (i.e. he's more likely to call T9 than make a small bet with it)
- we can fold to a shove
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Old 07-18-2009, 07:40 PM #5 (permalink)  
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he's not calling with T9 evar, he has T high dude
he could BLUFF it

that's the point, he'd probably fold for .30 with nothing, but he could possibly gaybet it as a bluff
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nish81
Old 07-18-2009, 08:35 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Yeah shoving is bad because way more better hands call you than worse hands.

But you still have a good hand that's worth a showdown.

You could, check if you think your opponent is mentally retarded and will check with the intention of calling

You could like do this crazy tiny valuebet.

Folding isn't really a good decision, neither is shoving, so getting out of the hand as cheaply as possible is the most important thing here.... do whatever is necessary to achieve that.
So either a c/c or a blocking bet, depending on how often he's checking behind

Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
he's not calling with T9 evar, he has T high dude
he could BLUFF it

that's the point, he'd probably fold for .30 with nothing, but he could possibly gaybet it as a bluff
so villain dependent then? he's rather passive so i dunno if he's bluffing (checking could be profitable if he was bluffing though). but has he really called the flop and turn bets with air? and the flush draw completed so he wouldn't be bluffing that.
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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RoyalProdigy
Old 07-19-2009, 02:51 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I probably would have bet the pot on the turn. Get him off that flush draw and if he has J-7 then he would shove and i would pay him off, he would also think about shoving with A-J after a pot size bet. If he calls i'm certain hes on the flush draw.
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Carroters
Old 07-19-2009, 03:09 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalProdigy
I probably would have bet the pot on the turn. Get him off that flush draw and if he has J-7 then he would shove and i would pay him off, he would also think about shoving with A-J after a pot size bet. If he calls i'm certain hes on the flush draw.
I really hate when people say the bolded bit there. We do not want to "get him off" a hand we're ahead of and are trying to get value from. All we want to do is deny him the correct odds to draw and thus profit.

Also, just because he calls 2 streets doesn't mean you should put him 100% on a flush draw and eliminate all other hands from his range. This is dumb because there's tons more hands still in this guys range after calling 2 streets like J10s 99 1010 to name a few DUCY?
 
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Nobody~~
Old 07-19-2009, 04:36 PM #9 (permalink)  

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I probably pot the flop and turn since you can almost always get away w/ it, before some stupid scare card comes and kills our action.
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nish81
Old 07-19-2009, 10:23 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
oesn't mean you should put him 100% on a flush draw and eliminate all other hands from his range. This is dumb because there's tons more hands still in this guys range after calling 2 streets like J10s 99 1010 to name a few DUCY?
Yeah, but does he call a river shove with JTs/99/TT?
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:47 PM #11 (permalink)  
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he probably calls a blocking bet, which is kind of the point of the blocking bet
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