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2nl: JJ preflop, 3bet or flat?

  
 
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nish81
Old 08-19-2009, 09:37 PM     Post subject: 2nl: JJ preflop, 3bet or flat? #1 (permalink)  
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- no reads on the villain :/
- we have a couple of nits behind us, one 70/0 guy (over only 25ish) who's been scared of pfr's so far, and two unknowns
- if i flat, i dont like seeing a multiway flop with JJ, especially OOP, because i think it's behind often 3way or 4way even with one overcard
- if i 3b, i could see a flop HU IP with the pfraiser. i thought i was behind his 3b flatting range.

but if i give an unknown a 3b flatting range of KK-99,AJs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo, then i have 55% equity here.

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG dragonflayer ($2.89)
UTG+1 raven4200 ($1.99)
MP1 Hero ($2.00)
MP2 Darth Candy ($5.11)
CO psicoper ($2.97)
BTN Ben_Fr_41 ($5.00)
SB sauerlandass ($4.83)
BB tiagor1 ($1.76)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 8 players) Hero is MP1
1 fold, raven4200 raises to $0.10, $0.10 to Hero ($2)?
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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helpme2win$
Old 08-19-2009, 10:56 PM #2 (permalink)  
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helpme2win$
hooks are so tricky like a small pair so many hands beat them if u shove on the weak/tight player he should fold
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Miffed22001
Old 08-19-2009, 11:16 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 3bet a fish
call vs a nit
and meh not sure vs a random

think i said in IRC id 3bet but i changs my mind to a default call here vs UTG/UTG+1 ranges - yes its 2nl blah blah but he still raised!!!
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JR9477
Old 08-19-2009, 11:19 PM #4 (permalink)  
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JR9477 is an unknown quantity at this point
 I'd rather 3bet here than flat. Flatting just opens it up at 2nl for everyone to call behind. At least when you 3bet you're likely to be IP and have a good idea of his range.
(Josh)
 
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JKDS
Old 08-19-2009, 11:20 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by helpme2win$
if u shove on the weak/tight player he should fold
ya, you do that...

anyway...im starting to lean towards 3betting against almost anyone but nits due to ppl loving to flat 3bets with a good amount of their range and playing pretty straightforward post.
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Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
 
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nish81
Old 08-19-2009, 11:21 PM #6 (permalink)  
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thing is, is my 3bet calling range accurate for a random 2nl? ive played 15 hands with him and he's definitely not a total nit or a total raise spewer (based on those 15..)
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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JR9477
Old 08-19-2009, 11:37 PM #7 (permalink)  
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JR9477 is an unknown quantity at this point
 It may not be 100% accurate, but as JKDS said, they're likely going to flat and play it pretty sraightforwardly, and you'll likely have position postflop. (Which I know this for a fact as this is one of my own tendencies.)
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Roller
Old 08-20-2009, 01:22 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Roller has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 3 bet

JJ is often painful after the Flop.
It's even worse when the Turn or River delivers an over.

I would 3 Bet and fold to aggression unless you have a solid read on the player.


Good Luck
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JoeHaw
Old 08-20-2009, 01:58 AM #9 (permalink)  
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His 3bet flatting range is probably wider than you put him on.
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Stacks
Old 08-20-2009, 02:03 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Stacks will become famous soon enoughStacks will become famous soon enough
 My standard is to call versus EP opens. So I would likely call here as well. However, if you have reads that he will be calling your 3bet with a wide enough range, then 3betting is profitable, and maybe best. However, a competent player wouldn't call worse than QQ in this spot (unless he had reads on you).
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philly and the phanatics
Old 08-20-2009, 04:55 AM #11 (permalink)  
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philly and the phanatics is a jewel in the roughphilly and the phanatics is a jewel in the roughphilly and the phanatics is a jewel in the roughphilly and the phanatics is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
My standard is to call versus EP opens. So I would likely call here as well. However, if you have reads that he will be calling your 3bet with a wide enough range, then 3betting is profitable, and maybe best. However, a competent player wouldn't call worse than QQ in this spot (unless he had reads on you).
see highlighted, see stakes, and then 3bet
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nish81
Old 08-20-2009, 08:55 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
My standard is to call versus EP opens. So I would likely call here as well. However, if you have reads that he will be calling your 3bet with a wide enough range, then 3betting is profitable, and maybe best. However, a competent player wouldn't call worse than QQ in this spot (unless he had reads on you).
Ah. I'm curious though - say you flat, two other people flat behind you, and the flop is something like A96tt. or K96tt. How do you play JJ then? As a B range hand? I get the feeling that OOP 4way we're behind if an overcard shows itself :S
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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philly and the phanatics
Old 08-20-2009, 09:19 AM #13 (permalink)  
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philly and the phanatics is a jewel in the roughphilly and the phanatics is a jewel in the roughphilly and the phanatics is a jewel in the roughphilly and the phanatics is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
My standard is to call versus EP opens. So I would likely call here as well. However, if you have reads that he will be calling your 3bet with a wide enough range, then 3betting is profitable, and maybe best. However, a competent player wouldn't call worse than QQ in this spot (unless he had reads on you).
Ah. I'm curious though - say you flat, two other people flat behind you, and the flop is something like A96tt. or K96tt. How do you play JJ then? As a B range hand? I get the feeling that OOP 4way we're behind if an overcard shows itself :S
nish obviously if you are four way after a pfr and an a or k shows itself you are behind :-/
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nish81
Old 08-20-2009, 11:23 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics
Quote:
Originally Posted by nish81
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
My standard is to call versus EP opens. So I would likely call here as well. However, if you have reads that he will be calling your 3bet with a wide enough range, then 3betting is profitable, and maybe best. However, a competent player wouldn't call worse than QQ in this spot (unless he had reads on you).
Ah. I'm curious though - say you flat, two other people flat behind you, and the flop is something like A96tt. or K96tt. How do you play JJ then? As a B range hand? I get the feeling that OOP 4way we're behind if an overcard shows itself :S
nish obviously if you are four way after a pfr and an a or k shows itself you are behind :-/
So how would you play it then? Because I'm pretty sure if i flat it then i'll be at least 3way
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Lucothefish
Old 08-20-2009, 12:16 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 I'm fairly sure I'd be 3betting here to $0.26ish
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Vinland
Old 08-20-2009, 01:18 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Vinland is an unknown quantity at this point
 vs an unkown, I 3bet to try to keep a hu pot and you'll have position. Flatting makes it too inviting for a multiway pot and you will not have great position.
As some mentioned though, his pfr range from UTG+1 is probably pretty strong so flatting can't be too bad either...but like you said you dont want a multiway pot with a bunch of Ax or Kx hands that may connect.
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Da GOAT
Old 08-20-2009, 02:07 PM #17 (permalink)  
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such an easy flat with a 70/0 left to act.
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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littleogre
Old 08-20-2009, 02:10 PM #18 (permalink)  

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 I would call then stack him when i hit a set and he is unable to lay down his big pair. Secondly i don't mind a multi way pot.
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nish81
Old 08-20-2009, 05:05 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Da GOAT
such an easy flat with a 70/0 left to act.
how come? wouldnt JJ fair badly multiway on most flops, specially OOP?


Quote:
Originally Posted by littleogre
I would call then stack him when i hit a set and he is unable to lay down his big pair. Secondly i don't mind a multi way pot.
$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG dragonflayer ($2.89)
UTG+1 raven4200 ($1.99)
MP1 Hero ($2.00)
MP2 Darth Candy ($5.11)
CO psicoper ($2.97)
BTN Ben_Fr_41 ($5.00)
SB sauerlandass ($4.83)
BB tiagor1 ($1.76)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 8 players) Hero is MP1
1 fold, raven4200 raises to $0.10, Hero raises to $0.30, 5 folds, raven4200 calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.63, 2 players)
raven4200 checks, Hero bets $0.42, raven4200 calls $0.42

Turn: ($1.47, 2 players)
raven4200 checks, Hero goes all-in $1.28, raven4200 goes all-in $1.27

River: ($4.02, 2 players)

Final Pot: $4.01
raven4200 shows:
Hero shows:

Hero wins $3.87 ( won +$1.87 )
raven4200 lost -$1.99


ldo.

but - arent you behind often in a multiway pot if/when an overcard hits?
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Donkafelts
Old 08-20-2009, 05:20 PM #20 (permalink)  
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After just having played 2nl im telling you this is a raise. Average 2nl Villian will 4 bet QQ+, AK and call with like....any ace, any broadway, any pair. You can tell me all you want that we cant assume he's that bad, but honestly i think you're giving up too profitable of a situation.

Feel free to disagree. Oh and FWIW he did say the 70/0 had been afraid of pfr's so he wont necessarily call.
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Outlaw
Old 08-20-2009, 05:49 PM #21 (permalink)  
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If you are good postflop then a call is easy here.. if you suck postflop, 3bet.
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