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2nl blocking bets with AA?

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nish81

07-26-2009, 06:44 PM Post subject: 2nl blocking bets with AA?

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

only played 5 hands with villain, he's been sorta aggressive over them though. once he minraises the flop i'm making blocking bets to try and see a cheap showdown - i've never made blocking bets before though :S

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($1.90)
MP2 ($1.82)
MP3 ($1)
CO ($0.92)
Button ($3)
SB ($2.41)
BB ($2.98)
UTG ($2.83)
Hero (UTG+1) ($1.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A

, A

1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, MP1 calls $0.08, 6 folds

Flop: ($0.19) 7

, J

, 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.18, MP1 raises to $0.36, Hero calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.91) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20

River: ($1.31) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, MP1 calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.51 | Rake: $0.10

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

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holdenthefuries

07-26-2009, 08:44 PM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2009

Posts: 21

When it comes j7j, 5 cards in the deck have hit. Out of those cards, one hand combination has you flat out beat (JJ), and two sevens out there can make the set. The question becomes - what range do you have your opponent on here especially calling pre flop?

One would think that somebody with a high pair would reraise you pre flop in this situation if they are a moderately good player. I would be assuming that this person has an underpair here and is playing on two pair value and betting that you do not have the jack or seven. Very well it could also be an overpair. Last but not least it could be suited connectors played fairly oop at these levels of play. In that case, you should let him bet into you with 10j, you really only need to worry about 67 or 78 in this situation, 7 9, etc.. It could also be 89 and his min-reraise is a play at a free card... and worst case scenario jj.

The real question is this - what is the harm in reraising his minimum raise? If he caps out or shoves, he very well could have a seven and it may be worth folding, if he simply calls, he may end up giving you more value with an underpair he thinks to be best, or he may fold to a bet on the turn after you have priced out his draw. The problem with making a bet of twenty cents on the turn is really that his effective odds are looking pretty good if he hits his gutshot or hits a set. I'm not saying that's what he has, but at 2nl it's very possible he's swimming for something like that, especially when you do not show aggression it reeks of weakness.

It really comes down to what range you can put him on, but I would think with a raise like that he may just have a jack or maybe an underpair that he was mining for a set and trying to get to showdown cheaply as well. Think about this - if you had three sevens or a full house come the flop and your opponent raised pre flop and likely has ace ace, would you make a minimum reraise on him or would you reraise the pot to try and get as much money in while you're ahead as possible? The minimum reraise may be begging for a call, but you're probably ahead at this situation. He may have you on big slick or something and be trying to get you out of the pot with simply ace high, this is a pretty common underpair play.

As for the turn, I like a bit bigger of a bet here, probably half the pot is sufficient if he has a jack he will still call if he is on a draw he will be priced out severely. Generally the blocker bet is to price out the showdown, you could very well have made the right play with the river blocker bet, as QQ is one of the overpairs in his range that we have discussed, so you priced it out for you well there in case he hit his set against you. But it really is read dependent... I would be hesitant to think he has QQ based on his pre flop play though... Just my two cents, hope it helps.

Ragnar4

07-26-2009, 09:03 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

Ship flop,

Failing that, Ship river.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

JoeHaw

07-26-2009, 09:37 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: IL

Posts: 186

normally flop minraises at 2nl mean two pair plus- i agree with you and I think your line for getting to a cheap showdown makes some sense, but you say you have a read that he is kind of aggressive (not your average 50/6/.9 2nl fish)

but its JJ TT etc. so much if youve seen this guy act out before that you have to get it in.

Even w the normal opponent I think you have to raise flop because its not even that dangerous of a board.

spoonitnow

07-26-2009, 09:43 PM

#5 (permalink)

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I might call flop to keep all of the weak Jacks in his range that might minraise/fold to a 3-bet for some retarded reason but I'm looking forward to getting stacks in at some point in this hand.

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philly and the phanatics

07-27-2009, 12:05 AM

#6 (permalink)

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philly and the phanatics is a jewel in the rough

nobody has even bought up the possibility of ace-jack which i feel a lot of people have at this level....i am assuming because he posted this hand, then that is not what he did indeed have. but either way, i think preflop is good, flop i probably would reraise his minraise but as played you need to put in at least 60 cents on the turn, this makes it so you have 90 left for a river shove and and it does not give him odds to draw at anything. you will see ace jack, 10 10, 99, 88 a lot of times, but most of the other hands you will see reraise with higher pairs (given in 2nl i have def seen my fair share of smooth calls with aces on an 8 cent pfr)

housefish17

07-27-2009, 03:21 AM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2007

Posts: 67

YES!! Thankyou philly for putting that out there. I don't know how familiar you ftr'ers are with 2nl these days but in july i've put in just over 21,000 hands at 2nl (which i'm very proud of thank you, BR management is my new friend), I'm shoving this flop every time after the raise. Too many times do people have AJ-JT, KK, QQ, TT-88 at these stakes. Now don't get me wrong, the villian can have a 7 relatively often, but at 2nl, it's generally nowhere near TPGK or an overpair

nish81

07-27-2009, 09:48 AM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdenthefuries

That's true..I'd have to disagree with you a bit about raising a high pair, I think maybe only AA or KK, maaaybe QQ would be 3b here by the typical 2nl fish (40/2/1 or thereabouts).

Quote:

The real question is this - what is the harm in reraising his minimum raise? If he caps out or shoves, he very well could have a seven and it may be worth folding, if he simply calls, he may end up giving you more value with an underpair he thinks to be best, or he may fold to a bet on the turn after you have priced out his draw. The problem with making a bet of twenty cents on the turn is really that his effective odds are looking pretty good if he hits his gutshot or hits a set. I'm not saying that's what he has, but at 2nl it's very possible he's swimming for something like that, especially when you do not show aggression it reeks of weakness.

I wouldn't reraise him on the flop, even with a range of Jx, 7x, and pairs/draws, IMO I'd rather get value from turn/river bets by keeping Jx in play here.

Quote:

It really comes down to what range you can put him on, but I would think with a raise like that he may just have a jack or maybe an underpair that he was mining for a set and trying to get to showdown cheaply as well. Think about this - if you had three sevens or a full house come the flop and your opponent raised pre flop and likely has ace ace, would you make a minimum reraise on him or would you reraise the pot to try and get as much money in while you're ahead as possible? The minimum reraise may be begging for a call, but you're probably ahead at this situation. He may have you on big slick or something and be trying to get you out of the pot with simply ace high, this is a pretty common underpair play.

As for the turn, I like a bit bigger of a bet here, probably half the pot is sufficient if he has a jack he will still call if he is on a draw he will be priced out severely. Generally the blocker bet is to price out the showdown, you could very well have made the right play with the river blocker bet, as QQ is one of the overpairs in his range that we have discussed, so you priced it out for you well there in case he hit his set against you. But it really is read dependent... I would be hesitant to think he has QQ based on his pre flop play though... Just my two cents, hope it helps.

Thanks for the help

I guess you're right, there's not much chance of him having 7x/JJ, even with the flop minraise.

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

nish81

07-27-2009, 10:11 AM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I might call flop to keep all of the weak Jacks in his range that might minraise/fold to a 3-bet for some retarded reason but I'm looking forward to getting stacks in at some point in this hand.

this is the line i feel i should have taken

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

now that you mention it, villain actually had (spoiler below)
AJs

I agree with you that i should be putting in more on the turn and setting up a river shove..oh well.

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

Carroters

07-27-2009, 12:25 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Da Amberlamps

Posts: 2,216

I'd ship flop for sure. This is 2NL. I think it's extremely unlikely he's min raising top pair on this flop to then fold to a 3-bet. He's likely to stack off with all his tp hands on this flop, but overcards can come on the turn which will kill your actions THEN there's a decent you'll have lost value.

If he's retarded enough to do this with like 1010, 99 or worse pps, then you could argue these hands will muck to a 3 bet, but how do you suppose we extract value from them on later streets by calling the flop raise oop.

The main point of this hand imo is that at this level, we just cannot afford to be afraid of trips here because unless we have reads that villain is extremely passive, top pair will be such a bigger part of his range and I think we're losing value by not shipping this flop.

If we were in position, I'd be more inclined to call flop because then we have the option of ensuring a bet goes in without taking a weak/lame turn line. If he checks we can be quite confident to bet close to pot for value on turn and river in this case. If he bets again we can call again keeping any potential bluffs in his range and allowing us to value bet river should he check on the end. OOP, calling flop doesn't really have these extra merits so ship all day long imo.

07-27-2009, 10:56 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

I wouldn't ship flop, I would try to keep his range as wide as possible

housefish17

07-28-2009, 02:31 AM

#12 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2007

Posts: 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I wouldn't ship flop, I would try to keep his range as wide as possible

Wouldn't you just be building an artificial equity then? I guess you would try to keep weaker hands in but in general with JUST an overpair I'm trying to win the pot right away. An opponent folding is the only 100% surefire way to win and with a decent pot built on the flop, i'm shoving this. Also like what has been said already, you run into AJ or for that matter any TPGK here a mojority of the time

And theory to practice, I just ran into this hand minutes ago.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($0.69)
MP3 ($1.55)
CO ($2)
Button ($0.85)
SB ($0.72)
BB ($2)
UTG ($1.74)
UTG+1 ($2.85)
Hero (MP1) ($2.66)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K

, K

UTG bets $0.08, UTG+1 calls $0.08, Hero raises to $0.32, 6 folds, UTG calls $0.24, UTG+1 calls $0.24

Flop: ($0.99) 3

, 6

, 9

(3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.56, Hero raises to $2.34 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1.78

Turn: ($5.67) 3

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($5.67) 9

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $5.67 | Rake: $0.37

I'll tell you right now, that second 9 hurt me, but the point is at 2NL, people will call all in with TP so many times it hurts to draw value through the rest of hand when you can just get it all in with way the best of it

JKDS

07-28-2009, 03:33 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,024

Quote:

Originally Posted by housefish17

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I wouldn't ship flop, I would try to keep his range as wide as possible

I dont understand what you mean by artificial equity, but saying we have "Just an overpair, so lets win the pot now" is bad reasoning. On a paired board with no flush draws, if we are ahead then our opponent is drawing very slim to a better hand. For instance, if he has QQ he's drawing to 2 outs (5% chance), if he holds KJ he's drawing to 2 outs, in fact...the best drawing hand he could have is a gutshot which is still only 16% and isnt likely to be in his range at all. So really looking to get it in because we're afraid of being drawn out on is really silly on a board like this.

The problem we run into with whetherto shove the flop though, and why many people are advocating to call the flop and get it in on a later street is that his range is highly polarized between two types of hands. He either has us completely crushed (7x, JJ) where we are drawing to 2 outs, or we have him completely crushed (AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, TT-QQ) and he's drawing to 2 outs. Both ranges likely bet flop, and almost all hands in these ranges will have trouble letting go on a later street. The problem here is that if we shove over, he is likely only calling us with (7x, JJ, AJ, KJ) and folding the rest. The likely 7s are A7, K7s, 87, 76, so if we just figure out the combinations here we get that his calling range, should we shove, is {A7 (4 ways to make this), K7s (2), 87 (8), 76 (8) , JJ (3), AJ (6), KJ (12)} Summing this up, we lose to 25 hand combinations and win against 18. Thats roughly 41% against his range and so if we were to shove, we wouldnt be doing it for value. Since its unlikely villain can draw out on us, we arent shoving for protection. That leaves shoving as a bluff, but its easy to see that we could get a lot more value out of him if we just call the flop and try to get some additional value from his QJ, JT, TT-QQ hands by just waiting a street or two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

spoonitnow

07-28-2009, 04:19 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by housefish17

...in general with JUST an overpair I'm trying to win the pot right away...

I don't think this means what you think it means.

Ragnar4

07-28-2009, 05:21 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by housefish17

...in general with JUST an overpair I'm trying to win the pot right away...

Emphasis used to help break down what I think is the most important misnomer here.

Flop texture, and relative hand strength, and opponents range are all contextually implicit here.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

langaan

07-28-2009, 04:00 PM Post subject: Re: 2nl blocking bets with AA?

#16 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2008

Posts: 240

Quote:

Originally Posted by nish81

, A

1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, MP1 calls $0.08, 6 folds

Flop: ($0.19) 7

, J

, 7

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.18, MP1 raises to $0.36, Hero calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.91) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20

River: ($1.31) Q

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.60, MP1 calls $0.60

Total pot: $2.51 | Rake: $0.10

raise flop like always

too many cards are going to slow his Jx down on the turn imo, and i see fish play a J like the nutz here alot even at 50NL.

way too many fish get it in with J here to slow play and lose value to an overcard on the turn/riv.

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housefish17

07-28-2009, 06:34 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Posts: 67

I guess my statement is contradictory then. I can understand how I was wrong about my line of thinking and I thought about that after I wrote it. I guess my line of thinking is more for drawing hands which that flop texture can only produce a gutshot which doesn't matter to much.

holdenthefuries

07-30-2009, 12:28 AM

#18 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2009

Posts: 21

Just played a copy basically and let me give you some insight into the last acting person's mind here.

Tagg from button 3 bets blind steal while I have AJ, flop comes 7j7, first to act bets half pot I fold. Quite simply the predicament from the button is whether or not he is bluffing or has a high pair, at microstakes 2nl though, he most likely has something like AA if he is betting a half pot @ that flop, especially if he is not typically 3 betting the steal attempt, so I don't think this is a light 3bet.

Anyway, if you call or raise you are probably wasting bets with two pair here against an overpair, his range is simply too vast to play.

He either has overpair or otherwise dominates AJ here, so it is a pretty easy fold unless checked to you in this PF circumstance. On a reraise, however I have a decent player with something that beats you. But this is microstakes, so who knows.

CrazyAndy27s

07-30-2009, 02:53 AM

#19 (permalink)

Join Date: May 2009

Location: London, UK

Posts: 25

If it's an aggro type at 2NL, I would just ship the flop, or value bet him each street as he is gunna be calling with much worse.

bjsaust

07-30-2009, 03:04 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Location: Ballarat, Australia

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A lot of comments in here just dont make sense. At the least if you recommend a play, give your reasons behind it.

Just playing to improve.

AFchung

07-30-2009, 03:06 AM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I wouldn't ship flop, I would try to keep his range as wide as possible

at 2NL their range is pretty damn wide already. wouldn't be surprised if 88 wanted to get it in here

i'm +1 for shipping it on flop too and getting called by a jack more often than not

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RoyalProdigy

07-30-2009, 05:43 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Location: Massachusetts

Posts: 178

I dont mind your call on that flop with the minraise, i would have bet the pot on the turn and shoved the river. Shoving the flop wouldnt be wrong and yes A-J, K-J, Q-J, and even a J-10s might call. But i think raising the flop wouldnt be a bad play either. he raised you to 36c so why not make it 72c and then shove the turn. I would have put my stack in the middle either way. It would be going in. IMO you dont want to be block betting here, get the shit in the middle...you have AA not A-J

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