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2nl: AQo hits TP on monotone flop

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nish81

08-26-2009, 10:43 PM Post subject: 2nl: AQo hits TP on monotone flop

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

no reads on villain

so my take here..b/f is better than c/c on this flop because we want value from draws, i think unknown at 2nl calls with any diamond apart from maybe 2d or 4d, and any SD. but there's so many turn/river cards that we dont like. the other option is c/f, but we have showdown value so I dont like c/f'ing..is it correct though?

and on river - is villain calling this with worse? maybe worse twopairs or worse pairs, but if we've been getting value from draws, i dont know if villain calls this. we could check to induce a bluff from missed draws, but does that happen enough, if at all, here? we could take a c/c line but if villain's never bluffing, thats no better. the other option is c/f but we've put in so much that i dont like that - maybt better to bet less on the flop and turn?

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG shallia ($0.97)
UTG+1 Hero ($2.10)
MP1 n8j55 ($1.04)
MP2 B.C K1LLA ($1.00)
MP3 81432 ($2.79)
CO gottgabgas ($1.59)
BTN Ronzo118 ($1.76)
SB zimbolote ($2.74)
BB Sanderus ($0.76)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 9 players) Hero is UTG+1

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.08, 3 folds, gottgabgas calls $0.08, 3 folds

Flop:

($0.19, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.16, gottgabgas calls $0.16

Turn:

($0.51, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.48, gottgabgas calls $0.48

River:

($1.47, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.96, gottgabgas goes all-in $0.87

[Results Hidden]

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

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08-26-2009, 11:29 PM

#2 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

TBH I think this is just one of those hands. Does he have the flush? Probably not as played. K

? It's probable. That river Q can suck my ass for sure. Check/folding the river though? Meh I don't know. I probably ship it and call for a rebuy.

littleogre

08-27-2009, 04:11 AM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

looks fine to me

AFchung

08-27-2009, 05:37 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: UCLA

Posts: 1,179

i like it

http://afchung.blogspot.com/

settecba

08-27-2009, 05:40 AM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: stealing blinds from UTG

Posts: 326

1) Think of villains range
2) Make assumptions regarding how will he play those hands when facing a shove, and when facing a check.
3) You have everything you need, now just figure out EV(bet), EV(c/c), and EV(c/f).

(Number 3 is just math)

If you want to add a 4, slightly chance those assumptions and/or villains range and see how your conclusions change.

GL!

nish81

08-27-2009, 10:54 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by settecba

Without doing the math. If I bet, he might fold some better hands. If I check, he might bluff with some missed draws. I think he isnt really folding a straight or a set if I bet here, (if he's come this far) and I don't think he's calling with many hands that I beat (folding missed draws which are a lot of his value range). So I'm inclined to say the choice is between c/fing and c/cing.

If ev(c/f) = 0.

At this point I was about to put him on a range, but without any reads that's too hard. How do I know if he's bluffing his missed draws? He might check behind with a straight or if he's aggressive he might bet it. He might even bet two pairs against me. So without any reads, I really don't know how to put him on a sensible range and calculate my ev.

Do you agree that c/c > b/f here? Because if I bet, he isnt folding many better hands or calling with a lot of worse, whereas if I check, he might bluff missed draws, or check behind with sets/straights.

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

nish81

08-27-2009, 11:18 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Actually i'll c/f flop or turn because it's too hard to play without reads dammit

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

Carroters

08-27-2009, 01:11 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Da Amberlamps

Posts: 2,216

Remember it's 2NL and he may well be calling a good amount of worse 2 pairs or even top pair still on this river. We have no idea if he bluffs missed diamonds and also a lot of his missed diamonds now have made a straight. I think c/c is bad because he may only be betting for value and we're letting him check behind hands like weak aces, 2 pairs etc that he may be bad enough to call a bet with.

I blocking bet because if I check I'm check folding this river. I like your line actually, maybe bet even less on the river to ensure he calls with a widish range of worse hands and you lose less when he's got a stright or flush or w/e.

c/c rivers is best left for spots where there is little no value in bettin (I don't think that's the case here) and when we have a better read that villains betting range will contain plenty bwuffs. NH imo.

Oh and please don't c/f flop or turn because it's "too hard to play."

Carroters

08-27-2009, 01:17 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Da Amberlamps

Posts: 2,216

just saw villains stack size so forget what I said about betting even less. I still think your line isn't terrible given the size of the pot he should be calling worse enough to make your bet profitable on the river. Also given that we may be losing equity by c/f and c/c lets him check back worse he'd call a bet with, I think the line you took is in fact the only option.

nish81

08-27-2009, 03:08 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2009

Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

This is true; I suppose there is some value left in our bet.

Quote:

c/c rivers is best left for spots where there is little no value in bettin (I don't think that's the case here) and when we have a better read that villains betting range will contain plenty bwuffs. NH imo.

But what if he checks behind with some hands on the river that beat us, thereby making a showdown cheaper? like a set or a straight because he's scared of the FD? if he does this enough, then this might be the best option. which brings me to

Quote:

Oh and please don't c/f flop or turn because it's "too hard to play."

I'm not saying that, but I'm saying it's hard to play without any reads. especially when you account for the fact that you get a wide range of villains at 2nl - you will get people who bluff any diamond on the river, or people that'll fold a straight to a bet, on this river, or w/e. and the way I see it, our best play is determined by 'how often villain bluffs missed draw', 'how often villain checks behind with a better hand', 'how often villain calls with worse hands that we beat', etc. and to get a good idea of all those things, we need reads right?

i dont think i'm seriously advocating c/f'ing though, just making a point. and i think i do agree with you that b/f is, i guess, the best line on the river in a vacuum..but i dont know if that's saying much

<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

JR: lets do it JUAN
JR: mono e mono
JR: man to man
JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds

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2nl: AQo hits TP on monotone flop

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