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2NL AA versus AI on River.

  
 
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Qminator
Old 09-03-2009, 10:06 AM     Post subject: 2NL AA versus AI on River. #1 (permalink)  
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Another problematic hand i came across in PT. Did i play my aces good? Villain was Loose/aggressive. I put him on 22+, any broadway. Call or fold?

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG dunhillon ($5.17)
UTG+1 Draw Button ($0.46)
CO Arrano beltz ($2.87)
BTN barny1957 ($3.05)
SB ToTheEnd460 ($2.15)
BB Hero ($2.78)

Pre-flop: ($0.03, 6 players) Hero is BB
dunhillon calls $0.02, 1 fold, Arrano beltz calls $0.02, barny1957 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.08, dunhillon calls $0.06, Arrano beltz calls $0.06, barny1957 folds

Flop: ($0.27, 3 players)
Hero checks, dunhillon checks, Arrano beltz bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.30, dunhillon folds, Arrano beltz calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.87, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, Arrano beltz calls $0.40

River: ($1.67, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.90, Arrano beltz goes all-in $2.09

The total pot size is approx. 4,5$ ( Villain's bet added). 2 $ = 40% I've put the numbers in pokerstove and i've got 70% equity against villains range = EV+. Is my think process good and is it a call?
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JoeHaw
Old 09-03-2009, 12:08 PM #2 (permalink)  
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His range is not wide enough that you have 70% equity. Re-evaluate the hands he can be raising you on the river with here and keep in mind the ranges you put him on for flop and turn, cause they aren't going to get wider on the river. Sort of a f(g(x)) thing where the domain of f o g is restricted by the domain of g(x).

He's definetly not doing this w any pair or broadway.
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tuuk2
Old 09-03-2009, 12:10 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Actually, you didn't play it that well. You should have raised more pre-flop to weed out some of the callers, or at least make the pot larger. If they called .02, they'll most likely call .06 more to see a flop. Maybe bet around .12 or even higher. It's likely you'll get at least one caller anyway and you're OOP so you want to narrow the field.

After the flop, you've got to lead out there to define your opponents' hands and to guard against the flush draw. I'm betting the pot here. I understand you were trying for the check raise, but if both players had checked behind you, you're giving someone a possible free draw to a flush.

On the turn, you've got to bet at least 2/3rds the pot. I'm betting the pot myself, but I like to bet hard in these cases, especially if I think I'll get called and if I think I'm way ahead.

On the river, you probably need to call, but don't be surprised if he turns over KQ. It's possible he has A-K though and a host of other cards. That's why it's important to put him on a range. If you have any reads on the guy, the all-in bet can guide your decision. If not, you are getting the odds to call.
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Carroters
Old 09-03-2009, 12:23 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuuk2
Actually, you didn't play it that well. You should have raised more pre-flop to weed out some of the callers, or at least make the pot larger. If they called .02, they'll most likely call .06 more to see a flop. Maybe bet around .12 or even higher. It's likely you'll get at least one caller anyway and you're OOP so you want to narrow the field.

After the flop, you've got to lead out there to define your opponents' hands and to guard against the flush draw. I'm betting the pot here. I understand you were trying for the check raise, but if both players had checked behind you, you're giving someone a possible free draw to a flush.

On the turn, you've got to bet at least 2/3rds the pot. I'm betting the pot myself, but I like to bet hard in these cases, especially if I think I'll get called and if I think I'm way ahead.

On the river, you probably need to call, but don't be surprised if he turns over KQ. It's possible he has A-K though and a host of other cards. That's why it's important to put him on a range. If you have any reads on the guy, the all-in bet can guide your decision. If not, you are getting the odds to call.
This. You played this hand pretty horribly. Look at the pot odds to call this iver shove, if he ever spazzes with a king or bluffs a missed fd here then you need to call. You need to call if there's like any chance of this at all given this price.

Checking the flop is bad because

A. You're risking giving people a free card and on this board there's quite a few bad turns to see.

B. You're just missing a ton of value by not betting, draws and kings will defo call multiple bets here.

C. Some of these hands we're getting value from may not even call c/r if they DO bet, where as they will indefinitely call multiple streets. This pot's already getting big so there's just no need to c/r to get all the money in just bet 3 streets hard with the bonus of protection.

 
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Monty3038
Old 09-03-2009, 03:08 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Can't argue with any of the logic from tuuk or carroters here, but will add this, at 2nl, remember the price of the call. While not making strategy horendously different, too many players at 2nl will call with nearly anything on a .08 raise, especially with limpers in front, consider raising your starting bet to 5x at a minimum at 2nl when you are insterested in isolating, then add 1x for each limper ahead... thus .12 or .14 pre-
 
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Qminator
Old 09-03-2009, 03:08 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Thanks for the replies!

Quote:
If they called .02, they'll most likely call .06 more to see a flop. Maybe bet around .12 or even higher.
This leads me to another question. Mostly i'll open 8bb. What i noticed, even in the 2NL games and in contradiction with what everyone says, few people ever call. Maybe it's just coincidence or tight tables. That's why i didn't bet more.
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tuuk2
Old 09-03-2009, 03:22 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qminator
Thanks for the replies!

Quote:
If they called .02, they'll most likely call .06 more to see a flop. Maybe bet around .12 or even higher.
This leads me to another question. Mostly i'll open 8bb. What i noticed, even in the 2NL games and in contradiction with what everyone says, few people ever call. Maybe it's just coincidence or tight tables. That's why i didn't bet more.
If they don't call, that's the way it goes. I've seen too many people who try to get max value out of AA by slow playing, even limping pre-flop. That is a recipe for disaster.
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settecba
Old 09-03-2009, 08:13 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Bet a lot more, and raise more, every street...
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Vinland
Old 09-03-2009, 08:45 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by settecba
Bet a lot more, and raise more, every street...
Agreed.
If your reads on villain are sound then you can put a good number of KX hands in his range that you beat.
You should have plenty of equity to call this off.
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littleogre
Old 09-03-2009, 10:37 PM #10 (permalink)  

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 1 raise more pre-flop
2 lead flop
3 bet more on turn. The standard 3/4 pot would be fine
4 as played fold river.
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nish81
Old 09-04-2009, 08:53 AM #11 (permalink)  
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i raise to .16 preflop, lead .22 on the flop as played, and lead more on the turn as played.

if you're right in that villain is bluffing this card a fair amount of the time, then i guess you could call river
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

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JR: HU4ROLLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Dealer: juan0984 folds
 
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Qminator
Old 09-04-2009, 12:39 PM #12 (permalink)  
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The results:

River: ($1.67, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.90, Arrano beltz goes all-in $2.09, Hero goes all-in $1.10

Final Pot: $5.67
Arrano beltz shows:
Hero shows:

Arrano beltz wins $5.51 ( won +$2.64 )
barny1957 lost -$0.02
Hero lost -$2.78
dunhillon lost -$0.08

Thanks!
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Old 09-04-2009, 02:42 PM #13 (permalink)  
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his bet is 1.1 over your bet you only need to call 1.1 into 4.5 which means you need to be good 25% of the time
it's a fucking snap call vs. a lag
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tuuk2
Old 09-04-2009, 04:45 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I see that a lot at 5nl. They never raise, only call and then push on the river. It's very effective on me. But in this case, unless you absolutely know he's got a boat, you've got to call.
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spoonitnow
Old 09-04-2009, 07:02 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 Congrats on trying to approach the river call in a correct way. The range you've assigned him and the math parts you need some work on, but those can be fixed! I hope you'll come into IRC and discuss this and fix your two key problems with your river analysis here.

Additionally, raise more preflop, bet the flop, etc.
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Qminator
Old 09-04-2009, 10:10 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuuk2
I see that a lot at 5nl. They never raise, only call and then push on the river. It's very effective on me. But in this case, unless you absolutely know he's got a boat, you've got to call.
At 2NL it's just horrible. Actually, when i browse trough my PT HH i noticed these kind of situations are my biggest downers. Goiing in with a good hand, getting called and shove AI on turn or river. Losing a BI against some guy who called my raises with A2o and catching a set or a boat. I even went trough a period not calling these shove(s) unless i had an unbeatable hand. Now i know fish-AI's are rarlely bluffs but aren't top combinations either.
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Donkafelts
Old 09-06-2009, 08:03 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qminator
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuuk2
I see that a lot at 5nl. They never raise, only call and then push on the river. It's very effective on me. But in this case, unless you absolutely know he's got a boat, you've got to call.
At 2NL it's just horrible. Actually, when i browse trough my PT HH i noticed these kind of situations are my biggest downers. Goiing in with a good hand, getting called and shove AI on turn or river. Losing a BI against some guy who called my raises with A2o and catching a set or a boat. I even went trough a period not calling these shove(s) unless i had an unbeatable hand. Now i know fish-AI's are rarlely bluffs but aren't top combinations either.

If you fix your betsizing like everyone told you to do you will win more ev every time people call you with retarted a2o air/draws. When you look through your HH dont adjust your play based only on where you lose money. Decide if your play was bad by self analysis or posting on forums, then repeat +ev decisions and stop doing the -ev stuff. Be happy when fish at 2nl call your turn pot sized push with a gut shot regardless of the outcome.
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