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kiwiMark
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05-30-2010, 10:56 PM
Post subject: 25NL - QQ BvB
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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Another 3bet hand where I get lost.
Villain is 22/18, 75% raise first in from the blinds, and with a 38% fold to 3bet and seems to be a thinking reg.
$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($40.25)
UTG+1 ($34.50)
CO ($21.60)
BTN ($41.40)
SB ($25)
Hero ($46.30)
Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BB  
4 folds, SB raises to $1, Hero raises to $3, SB calls $2
Flop:    ($6, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
Turn:  ($6, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, SB raises to $8, Hero calls $4
River:  ($22, 2 players)
SB goes all-in $14, $14 to Hero ($35.3)?
Preflop: BvB I really don't know how to put this guy on an accurate 3bet calling range. Any pointers? I'm going for {99+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+, KQo, QJs}
Flop: Here he insta-snap-checked, as soon as the cards came out. I'm not really sure what that means, but it seems worthy of note that he didn't need to think at all on this flop. I feel like betting here his calling range won't be weak enough that I'm getting value, so I check behind.
Turn: A second ace comes, and villain checks again. I bet 2/3 pot here, reasoning that he'll call with his pocket pairs since it now looks very very very unlikely that I have an ace. Again I'm fairly lost here, at the time I felt like I could discount aces here when he checks to me twice, but now I wonder if he insta-checked flop 'cause he hit an ace and was trying to trap me or something. He minraises my bet, which I figure he could do with a bunch of air since it looks bluffy my betting the turn after checking the flop (ie. it's unlikely the ace helped me on the turn magically, if I was unwilling to bet it on the flop).
River: He shoves the river, and I need to be good more than a quarter of the time, and I'm really not confident that I am. Now his range really is just pure bluffs or aces, and I don't think there's enough crap in his range that he would turn into a pure bluff (ie. I don't see him shoving his pairs here, when they have some showdown value), so I think his range is weighted way more towards aces, making this a fold.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Can you bet flop to get margional aces to fold? I think he would 4 bet AK playing OOP, but I don't really know how he nitty he percieves you. It would be hard for him to continue on the flop without AQ+, so like even as you said that you won't really get any value from betting, I think because he is a thinking reg you can bet him out of weaker aces. I think that a lot of his range is margional aces.
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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I'm not sure how many marginal aces I can really get him to fold here, as he probably expects me to auto-cbet in 3bet pots, especially on this board, so he's likely calling with them. Even if I can get him to fold enough to make it a profitable bet on the flop, I think by checking behind I keep his range wide enough that I can bet for value on later streets (whereas if I'd bluffed at the flop, when he calls his range crushes me).
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rpm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: learnin'
Posts: 2,039
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i like all streets assuming you folded river. preflop your continue vs 3bet range seems pretty good. i guess you have to fold on the river - a thinking reg knows that doing that with JJ is spew right? pretty suicidal bluff to attempt OOP because all you have to do is be checking back top pair once in a while and he goes into auto-spazz. pretty weird to decide to go nuts after checking the turn though. doesn't seem to make sense as either a bluff or a strong hand that villain wants value from. however i can't see a thinking reg following through on the river with air much here. out of interest, in case our villain is perceptive enough - how many Ax hands are in your preflop 3betting range and what % of them are you cbetting on this flop?
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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Against this guy I'm probably only 3betting AK and AQs, since he has such a low fold to 3bet I'm not getting excited about 3bet bluffing with shit like A7s. I'd defo cbet AK here, I'm not sure, I might do the same sorta thing with AQ as I'm doing with QQ (ie. check back this flop and look for value on later streets).
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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His line looks like one of three hands: 44, 77, or AK. I don't see how you are possibly ahead when he check raises you on the turn like that, including the fact that he snap checked the frop.
The board is so unbelievably dry that I almost prefer a check behind again on the turn. This maximizes the odds of getting one street of value from villain while also minimizing a loss (don't forget, this is a 3bet pot with two aces on the board).
Also, just because this is a BvB situation, it doesn't mean he can't have a hand here.
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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Cool, thanks for the advice. So you take the snapfropcheck to mean "omg i haz nuts i hope kiwimark bets into me!!"
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rpm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: learnin'
Posts: 2,039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiMark
Against this guy I'm probably only 3betting AK and AQs, since he has such a low fold to 3bet I'm not getting excited about 3bet bluffing with shit like A7s. I'd defo cbet AK here, I'm not sure, I might do the same sorta thing with AQ as I'm doing with QQ (ie. check back this flop and look for value on later streets).
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yep. that works. as long as your betting range isn't exclusively Ax (ie as soon as you check your hand is face-up to a perceptive opponent)
as a little bit of a detour, if he's opening so wide (75%), and has a low fold to 3bet, wouldnt you want to widen your 3bet for value range IP? 75% is a huge % of hands to be opening (if he is opening that wide) so if he continues to 3bets with over half of it, i would be probably 3betting like 88+,ATs+,AJo+,KQs for value, and adjusting the % of bluffs in my 3bet range down. just an idea.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
His line looks like one of three hands: 44, 77, or AK. I don't see how you are possibly ahead when he check raises you on the turn like that, including the fact that he snap checked the frop.
The board is so unbelievably dry that I almost prefer a check behind again on the turn. This maximizes the odds of getting one street of value from villain while also minimizing a loss (don't forget, this is a 3bet pot with two aces on the board).
Also, just because this is a BvB situation, it doesn't mean he can't have a hand here.
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I agree completely.
I usually do this check flop, bet turn thing too but our hand is way too face up if he reads hands at all that I think if we check flop we should check turn and bet river.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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if I bet the flop I'm stacking off
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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1/2 pot this turn please.
I probably just fold to the C/R.
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cleanup.that
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 106
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Is it too weak to just fold to the raise on the turn?
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You wanna die? Run on up on that black Seven forty-five.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanup.that
Is it too weak to just fold to the raise on the turn?
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No, against weaker opponents this is typically FPS. That said, he's strong enough that I kinda want to call him down but probably still give this one to him.
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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Okay, thanks heaps guys. At the time I was thinking "I need to be good so little to call here" to the minraise on the turn, but I guess I wasn't really taking into account that there's still another street to go, and how strong his line is.
Also always good to see higher stakes players in the BC! 
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ljove
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 80
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I would push all in preflop.(QQ,KK,AA) I bet-he raise-I push all in.Your flop check is wrong.
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rpm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: learnin'
Posts: 2,039
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^^i think most people would prefer it if you tried to put more thought into your posts.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljove
i would push all in preflop.(qq,kk,aa) i bet-he raise-i push all in.your flop check is wrong.
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l o l
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiMark
Okay, thanks heaps guys. At the time I was thinking "I need to be good so little to call here" to the minraise on the turn, but I guess I wasn't really taking into account that there's still another street to go, and how strong his line is.
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I rarely see a river check in a spot like this unless it's a double check/raise.
You're like 1/20 to spike a Queen and it's only an under-full when you spike. Pretty straight up implied threat spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiMark
Also always good to see higher stakes players in the BC! |
That said, I mostly play in live games against pretty pathetic competition so these sorts of posts are more relevant to the sorts of spots I get into. I just get into them for more money O.o
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