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cleanup.that
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06-09-2010, 06:57 PM
Post subject: 25nl a poorly played JJ bvb
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 106
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Villain seemed like a looser reg. He has peeled flops against me pretty wide on a few occasions and I feel like he is certainly trying to exploit his position. This is the first time he has 3 bet me (He usually has been flatting) and while I think he seems "capable" I still decide to just flat here instead of 4betting.
I don't know why I chose to lead this flop, after going back over the hand I really think the best play is to check/call ( classic way ahead/way behind scenario) but nonetheless I donked out and of course he peels.
On the turn I'm obviously lost. (The pot is pretty big, I'm OOP , I have no idea where I'm at etc etc) If I check, I'm sure he is firing a good % of the time both as bluffs and and for value. I don't think I can lead again or check/call unless I'm willing to play for stacks and quite frankly I'm not willing to. Check/folding this turn seems like the best play in my mind, but at the same time it feels a little weak. idk...
Any comments on all streets are appreciated. Also as played, what are you guys doing on the turn?
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($19.35)
MP ($24.65)
Button ($25)
Hero (SB) ($26.15)
BB ($60.17)
Preflop: Hero is SB with  , 
3 folds, Hero bets $0.80, BB raises to $3, Hero calls $2.20
Flop: ($6)  ,  ,  (2 players)
Hero bets $3.30, BB calls $3.30
Turn: ($12.60)  (2 players)
Hero ???
Total pot: $12.60
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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c/c doesn't necissarily commit you to the pot and if he is firing a large % of the time I don't see why it isn't a profitable play as a bluff catcher.
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donkfish
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 97
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Since you say he peels a lot, it's going to take 2 barrels to get him off AK/AQ and <TT, which is good for us because we're getting value from worse hands. If you didn't expect him to fold the flop to a donk bet, you've got to bet/fold the turn here imo.
Quote:
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I don't think I can lead again or check/call unless I'm willing to play for stacks and quite frankly I'm not willing to.
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Then you called pre for pure set value then? If so, you're barely getting 12:1 here in this case and you're OOP.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Flat pre seems fine because if he's flatting alot in position his 3bet range will likely be pretty polarized and to get more value out of that air portion of his range just calling preflop is best. I dislike your flop lead, all it does it put you in a confusing spot on the turn and he's (probably?) going to c-bet almost all of his air on this flop so leading sort of stops him from doing so.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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I usually 4bet or fold pre depending on villain but def. don't donk for reasons stated above and just c/f.
How many hands do you have on the guy? Has he 3bet others a good amount? Is he positionally aware? A lot of this hand depends on these factors.
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Hoopy
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Riverballs
Posts: 777
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Leading seems to let him play his range perfectly + puts us in difficult spots on the turn +he's lilely cbetting this board with all his air. kmind do you really want to just c/f the flop?
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cleanup.that
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imthenewfish
c/c doesn't necissarily commit you to the pot and if he is firing a large % of the time I don't see why it isn't a profitable play as a bluff catcher.
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I didn't think I could call a turn bet and a river bet assuming he fires again, even if the river is a blank.
Also donkfish, I was not expecting him to peel too light in a 3 bet pot.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanup.that
I didn't think I could call a turn bet and a river bet assuming he fires again, even if the river is a blank.
Also donkfish, I was not expecting him to peel too light in a 3 bet pot.
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If he's a reg i think he would peel like 100% of his range on that flop IP lol (Cbet was for value amirite?). Anyway do you have any sizing tells on him?
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Sorry I mean c/f turn.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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What range are you putting him on. How are you doing vs that range? If he has AJ+ or a worse pair, what is the best way to extract value..
As played, his call on the flop is confusing.. its likely he would raise QQ/KK. Thus it has to be 22-99, AA/AJ/+ right? I think a donk/call then check/shove is fine (not my favorite play) or a check/call check/shove. If he has a better overpair, so be it. I am not one to lay down an overpair in BvB situations unless its against a nit. My main point here is that you have to give him a chance to put money in with the worst hands.. leading out folds a lot of worse hands that would definitely c-bet.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
What range are you putting him on. How are you doing vs that range? If he has AJ+ or a worse pair, what is the best way to extract value..
As played, his call on the flop is confusing.. its likely he would raise QQ/KK. Thus it has to be 22-99, AA/AJ/+ right? I think a donk/call then check/shove is fine (not my favorite play) or a check/call check/shove. If he has a better overpair, so be it. I am not one to lay down an overpair in BvB situations unless its against a nit. My main point here is that you have to give him a chance to put money in with the worst hands.. leading out folds a lot of worse hands that would definitely c-bet.
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Is he stacking off with worse on a river blank? check/shoving river seems a bit spewy because he isn't really stacking off with worse.
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cleanup.that
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaw
What range are you putting him on. How are you doing vs that range? If he has AJ+ or a worse pair, what is the best way to extract value..
As played, his call on the flop is confusing.. its likely he would raise QQ/KK. Thus it has to be 22-99, AA/AJ/+ right? I think a donk/call then check/shove is fine (not my favorite play) or a check/call check/shove. If he has a better overpair, so be it. I am not one to lay down an overpair in BvB situations unless its against a nit. My main point here is that you have to give him a chance to put money in with the worst hands.. leading out folds a lot of worse hands that would definitely c-bet.
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I agree that I need to give him a chance to put money in with worse hands. I didn't really think this through, this is one of those spots that I'm never quite sure what to do. I'm starting to think that maybe it is just better to avoid these marginal spots altogether.
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You wanna die? Run on up on that black Seven forty-five.
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Imthenewfish
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: sites im allowed to play on
Posts: 945
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thin value yeah!
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LAPRAS
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Two Pair
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 32
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You don't really need a range for flatting a 3bet pre OOP.
A lot of villains "air" (hands that will fold to a 4bet) will be hands like Q/K/Axs which have decent equity vs us anyway - folding out the collective equity share of villains air is not a bad result compared to "keeping his range wide" when we're stuck in a 3bet pot wrestling with an aggressive reg OOP and without initiative. Any overcard is a scarecard.
4bet/calling pre seems a superior line.
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rpm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: learnin'
Posts: 2,039
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4bet/calling is pretty spew imo without relevant history. had he only 50bb or something it would be fine but 100bb deep i think we're just too crushed by his range when we get it in. his 3bet range is likely something like TT+,AQ and maybe some low suited aces. 4bet bluffs are pretty rare at 25nl and a decent reg would know this, i can't see him jamming worse than QQ+,AK. i like flatting pre here and keeping his range wide enough for JJ to have value postflop.
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Tasha
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Flush
Join Date: May 2010
Location: At the far end of the table
Posts: 262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Flat pre seems fine because if he's flatting alot in position his 3bet range will likely be pretty polarized and to get more value out of that air portion of his range just calling preflop is best. I dislike your flop lead, all it does it put you in a confusing spot on the turn and he's (probably?) going to c-bet almost all of his air on this flop so leading sort of stops him from doing so.
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So what would you recommend? Checking?
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Tasha
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Flush
Join Date: May 2010
Location: At the far end of the table
Posts: 262
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What about after the turn? What do you all recommend? From the villain's point of view Hero might be now have a flush or a flush draw. Even if he has an overpair can we scare him off with a raise or a shove?
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Icanhastreebet
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the big blind, cold calling your opens, making you tilt.
Posts: 993
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flat pre, c/c flop, as played c/c turn.
Reasons m2m and hoopy mentioned should be fine for why flatting pre and c/c is > 4bing or leading.
OT: kmind do you really ONLY 4b or fold pre v most villains? that's like lighting money on fire bvb
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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OOP you don't really need a 3bet calling range. You can literally 4bet/fold everything. I will go ahead and say at some points I do call but it's usually with monsters to "trap" but it has to be read dependent.
Tbh, I got this from ISF/Sauce awhile ago and just kind of changed my game to incorporate it. IP for sure I have a calling range. I still am not the greatest at 3bet pots ld0 but I'm still +++EV overall and don't have enough data anymore to see how I am with calling 3bets OOP or specifically bvb.
Can you explain a few examples in which you like to call OOP?
I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right by any means, I'm just going with what I was taught.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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After reading M2M's post yeah I guess if villain does have a pretty polarized range then flatting pre would be correct in most cases unless we have a big read postflop.
Interesting...
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