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Pelion
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10-17-2009, 05:16 PM
Post subject: 25NL: AQ preflop. To 3bet or not to 3bet.
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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This is a bit of an odd spot in that none of the players seem particularly loose. MP is 18/11 after nearly 40 hands. All of the others have VPIP around 20 - 25 but still only after 40 hands. If I call Im going to be OOP in a pretty big multiway pot when the best I can really hope for is a top pair hand that will be dominated if MP puts any money in. And Im not so sure about 3 betting when the original raiser is that tight. Is this a good spot for an OOP 3bet/fold to try and pick up the dead money from the calls?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($25)
CO ($22.80)
Button ($45.50)
SB ($41)
Hero (BB) ($28.20)
UTG ($27.15)
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , A
1 fold, MP bets $0.85, CO calls $0.85, Button calls $0.85, SB calls $0.75, Hero Raises to $3.75ish??....Or calls?....Or *gasp* folds?
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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This could be a case where you *gasps* fold imo. Like you said, you're going to be WAY OOP postflop, where the best you can hope for is an OK TPGK or TPTK that may be beaten by an overpair and thats tough to get value out of.
3bettign isn't TERRIBLE, but with this many callers, theres going to be SOMEONE that calls this, and you'll likely still be OOP. If this was suited, you could easily make a case of raise or call, but this is a fairly easy fold.
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,216
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Meh, I just call here. You can easily have the other callers dominated and MP should play very straightforwardly. He's probably opening AJ and KQ from here also, so I wouldn't say you're always behind if he bets a couple of streets when you have TP either.
Unless you suck major balls postflop, I think folding is too tight and passing up a +EV situation.
3-betting seems okay since we pick up the pot a fair amount of the time. If Mp is nitty he'll probably see a squeeze here as pretty strong and fold quite a lot of pairs. However, it really sucks when he calls then the others call due to lol pot odds because then we're still oop with AQ vs stronger ranges with amplified problems.
I think calling pre is the way to go here.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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I'd be more inclined to just call with AQs and 3b squeeze AQo
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Agree with carroters, but I would almost never 3bet AQ here unless I know all the callers have lolwide 3bet calling ranges.
Folding AQ might be nittish, but folding is 0EV, whereas postflop, we have a LOT of room to make some seriously -EV bets/calls/raises.
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TheRedEyeJedi13
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Two Pair
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 30
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Is there anything wrong with 3b/folding small to like $3 or so and c-betting desired flops? This seems too good of a squeezing opportunity and aq has about 52% equity against his opening range. i dont mind calling either. getting too good of a price to fold.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Obviously, theres nothing wrong with it, its just not something I do that often, since when one DOES call, more are likely to follow, and the 1st callers range is likely to be loltight, making our hand crushed by their 3bet calling range. So basically, we're hoping for more than TPTK, or TPGK when we hit, and looking for good boards to bluff when we miss. (Which there won't be many.) I don't know, like I stated above, call me a nit (I DO play FR fwiw) I just fold this and dont even think twice about it.
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Outlaw
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,033
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Depending on the flow of the game this is an okay fold. I never call here. Don't 3bet here if you are going to wuss out postflop 
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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With four players to act after our 3bet, I really don't think we have enough fold equity for this to be +EV. It may be a different story with less players in the pot.
Also, if you 3bet and get called by MP, there aren't many flops you'd be happy with. As Carroters said, there are hands such as KQ and AJ in MP's range that aren't in his 3bet calling range (assuming KQ and AJ aren't in his 3bet calling range ldo). I call here.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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dranger7070
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy
Posts: 2,524
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Diagf boog. Always disagreeing with me imo.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,518
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nothing wrong with calling if one or more of the callers seem like kinda passive donks. Usually I'll do that planning on leading flop when I hit TP, folding to most raises & value towning the donks.
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JoeHaw
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 186
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In a spot like this, I normally hover over MP1s PFR stat to see that he's at least opened in EP once or twice before, and than I convince myself that the CO and BUT have weakish ranges for flatting in LP and the SB is weak because he's priced in pretty good, and I 3bet with the intention of cbetting just about every flop for 2/3 pot.
I think thats a pretty big leak though and I'm going to try and stop because I think there's more people that flat QQ and KK as the BUT or SB than I acknowledge and that alone is enough to make the squeeze stupid. Fold?
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Muzzard
I'd be more inclined to just call with AQs and 3b squeeze AQo
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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I'd be more inclined to just call with AQs and 3b squeeze AQo
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While this is generally true, the hands run so close together in value that I cant believe whats best for one isnt best for the other in this spot, or at least I cant believe youve worked out that there is a difference. Also while a potential flush draw would add plenty of value in position, im not convinced it adds a huge amount out of position 4-way where we are less able to control the action and less able to extract maximum value when we hit/bluff when we miss/ bluff when we sense weakness. Anyway the point is we have AQo in this specific spot. What action do you believe is best, and what plan for the hand would you continue with?
Personally I think a raise and cbet most flops vs one caller is best, and Im really not sure about call vs fold. In the actual hand I tanked and folded.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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I'm just saying in general, I'd be more inclined to 3b AQo than suited.
In this specific situation, without a good read or stat base I guess I'd just make it like $4.25, it's going to look super strong and unless you have a laggy image or squeeze a tonne I can't see anything but everyone folding most their range. Unless MP has like JJ+ he's going to be shitting himself unless he gins a flop or has AA/KK anyway and just jams it up.
Also, if you get called by some loldonk who called or cold called pre, then it think it's fine to cbet most flops for liek half and shut down a fair amount if ur called and you brick out.
Ideally I'd like a bigger sample on MP if TAG-ish just so I know what his 3b calling ranges are etc.
I don't think I'm ever folding this pre, I'd complete with a tonne of hands worse than AQo just coz of PO. Sure If you wanna play it safe just call, folding seems pretty bad imo.
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Robb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,070
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Calling is fine and 3b'ing is fine. It's pretty close to dead even, here, I think. Just depends on your preference and your game style.
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