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tiltingdonkey
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01-22-2012, 05:30 AM
Post subject: 25NL 6m - turned FH best way to extract value?
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 51
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Villain is 44/24 over 25 hands, has 3bet 2/8 times so far.
Has cbet only once so far from UTG with TT vs a hand I played against him with roughly only 40bb stacks, I shoved flop with AQhh on Kxxhh and villain called and won.
I called the 3bet thinking I have borderline odds to set-mine. Still bad?
As played, what's the best line to extract value?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop | saw showdown
BB ($26.66)
Hero (UTG) ($25)
Button ($29.43)
SB ($34.59)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7 , 7
Hero bets $0.75, 2 folds, BB raises to $2, Hero calls $1.25
Flop: ($4.10) 9, 9, 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($4.10) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $3, Hero ???
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Huey_Freeman
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 53
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This is a much of a muchness and depends entirely on game dynamics and villain tendencies/ranges. 25 hands isn't a huge amount and I cba to go through a range analysis.
Probably minraise or something, that looks fishy and is likely to be called more often than a calculated 2.5x raise which most regs wisely fold to. Obv the river card could kill/boost your action depending on villain's perception of us and his actual hand strength.
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Roid_Rage
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He just wins, mmkay?
Posts: 395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey_Freeman
This is a much of a muchness and depends entirely on game dynamics and villain tendencies/ranges. 25 hands isn't a huge amount and I cba to go through a range analysis.
Probably minraise or something, that looks fishy and is likely to be called more often than a calculated 2.5x raise which most regs wisely fold to. Obv the river card could kill/boost your action depending on villain's perception of us and his actual hand strength.
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Lol wtf. This is pretty bad imo. Standard lines by fish (he could consider us a fish over this small of a sample) are to slowplay trips/big hands a raise later in the hand. We are repping exactly what we have or trips or slowplayed AA/KK.
Call and raise river, or bet ~2/3-3/4 pot on river if he checks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
cock sauce and anything asian is great |
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kickass
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: St. Shawshanks Infant School
Posts: 600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roid_Rage
Lol wtf. This is pretty bad imo. Standard lines by fish (he could consider us a fish over this small of a sample) are to slowplay trips/big hands a raise later in the hand. We are repping exactly what we have or trips or slowplayed AA/KK.
Call and raise river, or bet ~2/3-3/4 pot on river if he checks.
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agreed Id lay down TT-QQ all day to any raise here vs an unknown.
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put your glasses back on
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DonkWannabe
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Two Pair
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 26
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I'd find it hard to put someone on either hitting a 9 or pocket 7s in a 3 bet pot. If they guy has any PP 10-QQ, I can't see him laying down to a min raise or x2.5 on the turn.
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Roid_Rage
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He just wins, mmkay?
Posts: 395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkWannabe
I'd find it hard to put someone on either hitting a 9 or pocket 7s in a 3 bet pot. If they guy has any PP 10-QQ, I can't see him laying down to a min raise or x2.5 on the turn.
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Don't know if you noticed, but people get paranoid (including myself, and I'm sure you've been there too.) I would snap lay down TT/JJ and would agonize over QQ.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
cock sauce and anything asian is great |
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DonkWannabe
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Two Pair
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Glasgow
Posts: 26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roid_Rage
Don't know if you noticed, but people get paranoid (including myself, and I'm sure you've been there too.) I would snap lay down TT/JJ and would agonize over QQ.
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It would make you think! I'd get paranoid if I raised and was shoved on just to fold and the guy flips over AKs thinking he was ahead! and I can hear mutly from wackyraces sniggering in my head!
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kickass
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: St. Shawshanks Infant School
Posts: 600
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AKcc is 1 combo of likely hands we someone could raise this turn with 99 is another now your down to 34% favourite with TT-QQ add more in say 66 x 3 combos, 77 3 combos 9Ts 2 combos may be a few combos of slowplayed AA/KK your odds just keep going down. folding vs agression with mediocre hands is something you need to learn to do, concentrating on the tiny part of your villains range that you beat when there is so much more that beats you is a way to get yourself owned.
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put your glasses back on
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Roid_Rage
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He just wins, mmkay?
Posts: 395
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Ok let me be a lil more specific:
By minraising, you're essentially restricting what he can continue to bet w/ on the river. I.e. bluffs, 9x, TT-AA, etc.
By just calling turn, you have $20 stacks in a $10 pot. He'll have to bet more than 1/2 pot on river as a bluff (most likely unless he's a total fucking moron) and will CERTAINLY bet more than 1/2 pot w/ his value hands, allowing us to just lol and jam w/ our virtual nuts.
This is one instance where I slowplaying because it allows us to just shipitholla vs a wider range (he has a bigger opportunity to make a mistake, raging/sighing calling TT-QQ) rather than raising turn for a minimal net gain vs the range we already crush (allows him to play perfectly) that he may(read: likely) will fold to the minraise on the turn; TT-QQ.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
cock sauce and anything asian is great |
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Roid_Rage
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He just wins, mmkay?
Posts: 395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kickass
AKcc is 1 combo of likely hands we someone could raise this turn with 99 is another now your down to 34% favourite with TT-QQ add more in say 66 x 3 combos, 77 3 combos 9Ts 2 combos may be a few combos of slowplayed AA/KK your odds just keep going down. folding vs agression with mediocre hands is something you need to learn to do, concentrating on the tiny part of your villains range that you beat when there is so much more that beats you is a way to get yourself owned.
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You clearly missed the part where we turned a boat w/ 77, giving us the 2nd nuts, 1 combo of 99 beats us.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
cock sauce and anything asian is great |
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kickass
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: St. Shawshanks Infant School
Posts: 600
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i dont think you got my point. DW put his self in villains shoes saying he would hate to fold TT-QQ, in case he was being bluffed. I just gave us a range for raising the turn. 77 is in that range.
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put your glasses back on
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Roid_Rage
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He just wins, mmkay?
Posts: 395
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Ahhh.. touche I see what you're saying.
You should expand on that range a bit tho. Hero (actual Hero) is essentially in the CO since its 4 handed and is going to be continuing a lot of suited broadways and SCs to the 3bet pre since both ranges are (correctly) wider than average.
Its still stands that TT-QQ is owned regardless of how many draws you put in there, but its good practice! 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
cock sauce and anything asian is great |
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Huey_Freeman
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roid_Rage
Lol wtf. This is pretty bad imo.
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LOL at thinking fish fold to minraises and think about "what you're repping".
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supa
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 985
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Snap overbet shove turn.
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“Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all”
Put hero on a goddamn range part II- The 6max years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
start using your brain more and vagina less
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kickass
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: St. Shawshanks Infant School
Posts: 600
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villain has nuffin 88 at best or AKcc that wanted to chk jam flop. let him bluff. hes not callin a min raise and hes not callin a jam unless he has 66 or 99 and we get it in vs them anyways
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put your glasses back on
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supa
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 985
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It's 4handed, he has a 25% 3bet and has stacked off w/TT on a K high board. There are tons more hands he's calling a shove with esp since he knows we're happy to stack off with a draw.
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“Right thoughts produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of it all”
Put hero on a goddamn range part II- The 6max years
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
start using your brain more and vagina less
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tiltingdonkey
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 51
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Sorry for the lack of response guys. To be honest I'm still trying to digest all the information from this thread and the argument for flatting and raising both have their own merits to me at least.
@supa doesn't the fact that the current effective stack sizes now stands at 100bb changes a bit more regarding villain stacking off with TT? I don't know, I might be overthinking.
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Roid_Rage
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: He just wins, mmkay?
Posts: 395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huey_Freeman
LOL at thinking fish fold to minraises and think about "what you're repping".
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Of course he probably isn't thinking about our range, especially if we just call the turn and let him bet again on the river. He'll sure as fuck try to think of what we have if we minraise the turn. It's a nonstandard move and its going to give most people a pause on this wet/dangerous of a board.
Read my post about how when we call the turn we have $20 in a $10 pot and its an easy ship over any bet he makes, which he should bet the vast majority of the time w/ all his value hands and his air. We're not afraid of any cards hitting, so there's value in slowplaying this to extract more value later.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
cock sauce and anything asian is great |
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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call, jam over a river bet. you represent turning a hand that wanted to get to showdown but realizes it isnt good into a bluff better with this line. (this would assume villain is a thinking player)
if villain isn't thinking and is just clicking buttons or is mindlessly aggressive/fishy/tilted/whatever then we should still call because it gives his hands that are drawing dead (i.e. overs) a chance to improve and also a chance for hands to continue a bluff which wouldn't do so if we project the strength of our hand too early - in this case, by raising the turn.
a thinking regular may also go check bet/bet in this spot with bluffs if he perceives our range to be weak through checking back flop, smooth calling turn, but raising the turn just totally destroys the chances of us earning a bet on the river from any bluffs.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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The range of hands he checks the flop with will fold to a turn raise a high % of the time
call and let him do something silly on the river
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gingerwizard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,815
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Nice to see some of the experienced high stakes players posting advice here this week.
Thanks for the help with this one guys. I didn't post because I always get stuck in spots like this, obsessed with trying to set up getting my stack in now to justify the pf call from an implied odds view, but getting far too many folds and wondering if I should just wait for the river.
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