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25NL: 3bet Pot. Line check facing donk bet

  
 
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Evilpopcorn
Old 06-17-2009, 02:53 PM     Post subject: 25NL: 3bet Pot. Line check facing donk bet #1 (permalink)  
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Villian Stats : (VP$IP/PFR [Street Aggression] 3-bet%)

18/13 [4 - 0] 0% over 74 hands

My Thoughts And Questions

Villian seem over the few hands to be TAGish.

I find his play odd. Why would he donk in a 3bet pot? Especially when i 3bet his UTG open he can only hope to fold AK of my range. If his hands was very strong would he go for the c/r or c/c flop line to try get value.

So we are obviosuly not folding, but what is the best line to get it in with ? Ship it in now so we dont lose our market of middle PP's when over card hit on turn. Or do we flat leaving a PSB behind and let him bet off his stack ?

I guess it really comes down to what his range on flop is to donk. I was mostly just confused by his line. I would think this might be some scared PP's, odd attempt at a bluff, or nuts knowing that when i 3bet his UTG raise my range is mostly AA-TT and that the donk will induce a shove from me almost everytime. Very sneaky imo.

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players

BB: $10.95
UTG: $25.35
MP: $36.20
CO: $49.40
Hero (BTN): $25.00
SB: $26.35

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with J J
UTG raises to $1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, UTG calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.35) 7 2 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $4.25, Hero?
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spoonitnow
Old 06-17-2009, 03:06 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Some questions to ask yourself:

1. What range does he continue with to your preflop 3-bet? What better hands (if any) fold?

2. What is his flop range? What is your equity against that range? What is your equity against the part of his range that continues to a flop raise?
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daven
Old 06-17-2009, 03:07 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 cos he knows you may fold to a cr, and will probably raise a donk. This will leave you pot committed and he stacks you.

pre-flop why you 3-betting? Explain your reasoning (it may be fine, but are you doing it cos you understand, or cos you read a post somewhere that said "3-bet more")

I prefer 3-bet A7s/T9s and flat JJ here cos I a fish
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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BlueBull
Old 06-17-2009, 04:05 PM #4 (permalink)  

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As always... "beginner disclaimer"... but fwiw:

I flat jacks a lot ip as well especially against a nitty tag kind of player opening from utg. Im not sure what 3 betting gets you and while you going to be ip you going to be playing against a nitty utg opener in a bloated pot which is going to minimise any room you have to manouver and any mistakes you make are going to be big ones.

That donk lead could mean so much but exactly for the reason Daven mentions I personally use the donk lead against aggressive regulars a lot when I am strong (as an aside I have taken to donk leading a lot early in sessions to get an understanidng of how villains are going to react and Im finding it incredibly useful to have notes on typical reactions to donk leads because players seem to either give them no credit or way to much credit but they react pretty consistently once you have a read.)

Without specific reads though:
I think you only really beating 88 to TT here. IMO he may lead out there with that range simply because he doesnt really know what else to do with the hand. I dont expect him to barrel many cards though so as played I am just calling and seeing what he does on the turn. If he comes out firing hard again I would be prepared to let it go.
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DaD01ng
Old 06-17-2009, 04:18 PM #5 (permalink)  

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3betting and calling are the only 2 options preflop and both have their merits. It really depends what I do with JJ in this position preflop.

Anyways, I call the flop bet and if he bets big on turn then I fold. I don't see many hands we beat against his range apart from 99/TT. I don't know whether a 18/13 villain even raises 88 preflop UTG, but if he does then that's 3 hands we beat lol. He could also be bluffing with AK. I can definitely see villain with QQ-AA and 77 though hence why I fold to a big turn bet.
 
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Stephenurbanik
Old 06-17-2009, 04:39 PM #6 (permalink)  

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HAHAH ROOKIES
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Evilpopcorn
Old 06-17-2009, 04:39 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Concerning the 3bet i know against a tight opener UTG (AJ+ TT+) i am basically dead even vs that range. Not having a lot of hands on him but i can see he is kidna aggressive i would default to a slighty looser range and thus raise it for value. If i make that range AT+ 99+ then i got 55% equity. If i can widen his UTG raise to some more PP then this start to become extremely profitable as these guys call and set mine playing fit fold.

Postflop will alwayz be proceeding with caution tho.

I dont mind flatting JJ here either, but its not my default. Flatting JJ is fine imo as along as u are calling Cbets on K/Q (ace high board scares me vs his range) and evaluating turn.
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BlueBull
Old 06-17-2009, 04:50 PM #8 (permalink)  

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Quote:
HAHAH ROOKIES
Indeed. Thanks for the useful help though... great first post.
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Illfavor
Old 06-17-2009, 06:27 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Concerning the 3bet i know against a tight opener UTG (AJ+ TT+) i am basically dead even vs that range. Not having a lot of hands on him but i can see he is kidna aggressive i would default to a slighty looser range and thus raise it for value. If i make that range AT+ 99+ then i got 55% equity. If i can widen his UTG raise to some more PP then this start to become extremely profitable as these guys call and set mine playing fit fold.
Because he's aggressive (which does not translate to bluffy or LAGGy necessarily), you think he's raising wider pre and calling your 3bets with AT?
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nish81
Old 06-17-2009, 09:36 PM #10 (permalink)  
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IMO I wouldn't 3-bet the JJ, i'd stick him on pretty high range with a UTG raise, (and flatting your reraise too). plus with the value-sized (?) bet on the rainbow flop, i'd stick him on a high set (sometimes) or KK+, (maybe QQ too). so i'd either fold, or call and fold to a turn bet
<JustinSKS> Tha'ts why I fold my 33 to 72o, because 7 high beats, 1 pair, donk.

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Evilpopcorn
Old 06-18-2009, 05:46 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Ok so when u 3bet vs someones opening range do u do it for value vs his opening range or vs the range he continues. A certain % of the opening range will be folded = instant profit and then certain percentage of the calling range will fold to a Cbet if we chose to make one.

I get the vibe from you guys that u dobnt hate me 3betting JJ here but sounds like the prefered play is to flat untill i have good reason (reads) to 3bet here.
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JKDS
Old 06-18-2009, 07:08 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Ok so when u 3bet vs someones opening range do u do it for value vs his opening range or vs the range he continues. A certain % of the opening range will be folded = instant profit and then certain percentage of the calling range will fold to a Cbet if we chose to make one.

I get the vibe from you guys that u dobnt hate me 3betting JJ here but sounds like the prefered play is to flat untill i have good reason (reads) to 3bet here.
u do it for value against his continuing range. like if....

someone opens only 77+ and continues with TT+, (as a simple trivial example) then we are most certainly ahead of his opening range.

we have 54% equity so calling is +ev (one condition for 3betting for value).

but...when we raise, he calls/raises with TT+, giving us 34% equity vs his range. So by 3betting, it sucks when he calls or raises because we are no longer ahead of his range.

but...he folds 3/8 of his range to a raise, so 3betting as a bluff can be profitable in certain situations but its generally a bad idea to 3b as a bluff with a hand thats ahead of that opening range.
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Evilpopcorn
Old 06-18-2009, 07:43 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Thanks for that JKDS exactly what i was looking for. Ok let me try this now in the hand.

I will assume he open AT+ 99+ UTG and with JJ i have 55% equity against that opening range.

I will assume his calling range is AQs AK JJ+ and with JJ i have 38% equity vs his calling range.

So only a range of hands that beats me calls me, and the range that he open that i beat he folds. This is thus turning my hand into a bluff correct ?

Alright so we 3bet for value when we have the opening range beat AND the calling range beat ? That would mean i could only 3bet here with QQ+. Alright which seems a little incorrect. So i would think i need to factor in my positional advantage and the fact that we win the pot out right preflop sometimes. If i had to guess say i want 45% against his calling range then that means i can 3bet AK+ QQ which seems better to me to a tight UTG opener.

Is this luckbox donkey on the right track ?
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Lucothefish
Old 06-18-2009, 12:44 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 Bjsaust sums it up pretty neatly in his OP:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...82.html#738782
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Fnord
Old 06-18-2009, 08:00 PM #15 (permalink)  
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He probably has a smaller over-pair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Cougar
Old 06-18-2009, 08:03 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Yeah Evil, using Rentons ABCD Theory:

We want to raise with our "A" hands that we want to play for value in a bloated pot vs. his calling range (QQ+ in your example). We lose some value by folding out the lower part of his range but that probably wouldn't continue anyway and we gain ++EV with a bloated pot and a higher chance of playing for stacks, we also penalize the set miners.

We want to call our "B" hands that have +EV equity vs. the overall UTG range (i.e. 1010 / JJ). We keep the pot-size low and try to get to show-down cheap if we don't hit our set.

We consider 3-betting some portion of our "C" hands, those that we would normally fold but have significant potential to become big monster stacking hands (Axs / 109s / etc). These become +EV because although we generally fold to 4-bets and c-bets when villain calls, we profit from the 3/8 (or whatever) of villain's range that folds to the 3-bet plus something for the small % of times that we stack the villain who is going to be generally predisposed to felting.

Plus, against thinking opponents, we get an added "value" bonus for our future 3-bets from the "A" range because villain will expand his perception of our 3-bet range and we will get more value out of our QQ+ when we 3-bet.

Hope this helps because that's how I'm currently thinking about it... Regs, please correct me if this any of this is incorrect thinking!
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Fnord
Old 06-18-2009, 08:07 PM #17 (permalink)  
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If a lot of his range is 88-TTish stuff then think exploitation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Evilpopcorn
Old 06-19-2009, 05:40 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Convinced that Flatting JJ preflop here is fine.

As played tho i would think his range on to flop donk bet prob is 22 77 44 88-TT. So ahead of 3 combos and behind to 3 combos and getting 2.7 to 1 on the call and the fact that raising chases away the worse hands the call makes sense to me.

Now if he fires the turn again, especially on a broadway card i have to give him a lot of respect and just let it go me thinks. I dont think this player would be donking his scared medium over pair and then turning it into a bluff say on a K turn.
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Fnord
Old 06-19-2009, 10:12 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Now if he fires the turn again, especially on a broadway card i have to give him a lot of respect and just let it go me thinks. I dont think this player would be donking his scared medium over pair and then turning it into a bluff say on a K turn.
LoL! Certainly not online!
If I flat the flop I'm probably calling any reasonable turn bet as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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surviva316
Old 06-19-2009, 11:37 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
As played tho i would think his range on to flop donk bet prob is 22 77 44 88-TT. So ahead of 3 combos and behind to 3 combos and getting 2.7 to 1 on the call and the fact that raising chases away the worse hands the call makes sense to me.
why the hell is it harder to believe that he's donking with AA here then it is to believe that he PFR'ed 22 from UTG, and then called a 3bet?!?!
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Evilpopcorn
Old 06-19-2009, 12:37 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Now if he fires the turn again, especially on a broadway card i have to give him a lot of respect and just let it go me thinks. I dont think this player would be donking his scared medium over pair and then turning it into a bluff say on a K turn.
LoL! Certainly not online!
If I flat the flop I'm probably calling any reasonable turn bet as well.
Well if the villian a thinking player who i expect to double barrel cards then i would consider calling a turn bet as well. The thing is would a thinking player now turn his flop overpair into a sort of bluff on the turn ? If the villian is more of a level 1 think then calling flop and folding turn seems beter ?

I feel like the dumb kid in class lol
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Fnord
Old 06-19-2009, 04:34 PM #22 (permalink)  
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ZOMG, check/calling is for n00bs!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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