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25NL: 2nd Barrel?

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Evilpopcorn

07-06-2009, 08:21 AM Post subject: 25NL: 2nd Barrel?

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

Villian Stats : (VP$IP/PFR [Street Aggression] 3-bet%)

26/24 [1 1 1] 0% over 63 hands

My Thoughts And Questions

I flat as ATo does well against his range and 3betting would turn my hand into a bluff. When flatting like hands like this i intend to c/r a lot of dry flops as bluff, scooping up the Cbet.

So i get my flop and take the c/r line. When he flats he has minum Tp with a good kicker and i think that the bottom of his range.

Firstly when c/r as a bluff in this spot do we only continue with the hand when hitting a card that gives us a made hand? Like in this case i pick up the gutteball, but with his calling range being so strong i cant have much FE i think.

So bad spot to continue bluff ?

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players

UTG: $21.20
MP: $37.80
CO: $25.00
BTN: $31.15
SB: $26.60
Hero (BB): $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with T

3 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.60) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.25, Hero raises to $4.75, BTN calls $3.50

Turn: ($11.10) 9

(2 players)
Hero?

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BooG690

07-06-2009, 08:44 AM

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 1,439

Villain seems like he may be a station. He's shown you that he has a hand that can withstand a c/r. What are you representing? Do you think he's capable of folding after calling your flop raise?

I would not be 2-barreling here. You've run into a stronger part of his range. I usually make the same mistake of trying to bluff villain off his potential steal...and this is called spew.

That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.

Carroters

07-06-2009, 02:47 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: Da Amberlamps

Posts: 2,216

Easy check fold. As Boog says you've most likely run into the top of his range and/or he's a station. Either way, you don't get anywhere near enough folds to make a another barrel profitable here. Besides we have 0 equity so are relying on fold equity solely to win this pot (and there ain't too much of that)

07-06-2009, 02:55 PM

#4 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

c/f turn imo
carroters: we have at least 4 outs and sometimes we have 7 outs so it's not like we have 0 equity

also, I'd rather size my bets this way:
3.75 on the flop because I have a habit of making my raises 3x (unless the flop bet is small)
then the turn is 9 so we could bet 5 on the turn to make the river 19
and then shove river for maximum fold equity

that kind of sizing would tell our opponent "I calculated shoving the river from the flop, what are you going to do about it"

settecba

07-06-2009, 03:04 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: stealing blinds from UTG

Posts: 326

Easy c/f turn IMO. Also, something that no one has mentioned yet, Id say this is like the perfect hand to 3b this guy. ATo OOP is not doing well(as OP stated) against this villain because of reverse implied odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISF

Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.

07-06-2009, 03:59 PM

#6 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

we can flat if he has like 50+ ATS
if he raises the same range from every position then we can't

but 3bing could be more profitable even if flatting is profitable

surviva316

07-06-2009, 04:48 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

surviva316 will become famous soon enough

we fold 0.0% of his range double barrelling here. also, any reason for c/r'ing 4x's as a stone cold bluff. i can't imagine he's continuing more often to a 3x raise than a 4x one

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

oskar

07-06-2009, 04:50 PM

#8 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2008

Location: in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz

Posts: 2,452

I agree with the call pre... I do not agree with the reasoning.
What you should be thinking about is:

what is his opening range?
what is his 3b calling range?
what is my fold equity?
how does he play in 3b pots.

-> Can I play this hand more profitably by 3-betting, folding or calling.

idk who started with this "turning your hand into a bluff" BS... this is just a way of categorizing your hand that is completely useless imho.

c/r flop doesn't represent much do a thinking opponent... and 26/24 is probably thinking. If I was raising here, I would make sure that I have c/r something like TP vs him before.

Think about what line you would take with Kx or a set, and there you go.

The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.

d0zer

07-06-2009, 05:26 PM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 2,518

Terrible card to fire again. c/f.

Also you can size your c/r smaller both for value and as a bluff in this spot.

Other than that I don't mind this hand.

Evilpopcorn

07-06-2009, 08:24 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

Quote:

also, I'd rather size my bets this way:
3.75 on the flop because I have a habit of making my raises 3x (unless the flop bet is small)
then the turn is 9 so we could bet 5 on the turn to make the river 19
and then shove river for maximum fold equity

Planning pot sizes for the rest of the hand is something i never do and is something i should really start thinking about. I just tend to do every the same. My bet sizing is something i keep very constant except against droolers where i bet bigger for value cos i know they wont notice.

Also WOW would your ever take this line at 25NL ? I think once he calls flop c/r he aint folding nothing even to river shove.

Quote:

we fold 0.0% of his range double barrelling here. also, any reason for c/r'ing 4x's as a stone cold bluff. i can't imagine he's continuing more often to a 3x raise than a 4x one

Read this and agree 100% on my c/r sizing. i think this is something i must def start doing.

Quote:

Well this is why i used the phrase "Turning my hand into a bluff by 3betting". Havent played many hand with the villian so i cant really assume to know his exact fold to 3bet%. Thus i make the generalisation that it will be pretty high at 25NL. Find lots of players who are positionally aware but fold a ton when facing a 3bet. So if i assume he has a high fold to 3bet% then 3betting AT would be turning my hand into a bluff. Agree ?

Now if i know he hardly ever folds to 3bets and he is opening wide then i like will 3bet for value.

So if i have it right then it comes down to my assumption of a 25NL player who seems positionally aware but dont have a lot of hands on him to have good fold to 3bet numbers.

You make a very good point about a thinking player will no that i am hardly ever c/r here with a set. Think i get away with it a lot as players are playing there card a lot at 25NL. Ok so should i rather be doing this on a drawy flop? A good player SHOULd still fold marginal top pair hands and worse as he knows that he is either crushed or not terbily far ahead of a draw. Is my thinking right here? Even tho the board is draw heavy and he will put more bluff in my range its still tough for him to continue with nothing and marginal made hands.

Evilpopcorn

07-09-2009, 06:55 AM

#11 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

*bump*

kmind

07-09-2009, 02:20 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Not Giving In

Posts: 4,240

c/f turn for sure

if you are c/r flops please pick a good range to do so against each opponent. I guess this is ok.

Evilpopcorn

07-10-2009, 07:40 AM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

Ok so concerning the line when we flat out of the blinds and c/r as a bluff. Are drawy or dry boards good ? Is it much more opponent specfic? If someone plays fit or fold poker (level 1) board texture matters less ? Would a thinking oppoent not beleive your c/r on a dry board as he would expect u to play it slower for more value, but then on a drawy board would he not think that you are c/r raising a lot of draws ?

mr.duvall25

07-11-2009, 09:53 AM

#14 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2009

Posts: 40

u call pre flop der u miss the flop and hit no draw besides a runner runner prayer easy fold on his flop bet don't raise, at worst min raise then check fold the turn if u dont like it.
theres way better spots out there...and better flops for this hand

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