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22 flops set 3way with drawy board

  
 
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kb coolman
Old 02-16-2009, 04:23 AM     Post subject: 22 flops set 3way with drawy board #1 (permalink)  
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CO is in his first hand at the table, he sat and posted in the CO. This is the first hand I've ever played with him.

BB is a solid reg. She has moved up through the ranks with me, and I know she only calls down with monster hands. A flop raise usually means at least two pair. She doesn't normally play small suited connectors/gappers, and they're clearly out of her range from the BB. She will re-raise AA/KK type hands hard, especially OOP. Her calling range here is pretty much pocket pairs and AK.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players

Stacks:
UTG ($5.04)
UTG+1 ($22.30)
CO ($25.00)
BTN ($15.85)
Hero (SB) ($53.70)
BB ($32.00)
[CO posted $0.25]

Pre-flop: ($0.60, 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, CO checks, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.75, CO calls $0.75

Flop: ($3, 3 players)
Hero bets $2, BB calls $2, CO calls $2

Ok, I'm not too concerned here, but I think at this point I put BB on an overpair, and CO on a straight/flush draw. When I look back at it I hate not potting the turn here. The only think that has me beat here is set over set, but those pesky implied odds....

Turn: ($9, 3 players)
Hero bets $6, BB raises to $15, CO goes all-in $22

Now, for that damn awful set OOP on this turn. Is my open here correct, or am I better off c/c or c/f? Is there any reason I should be calling? I think my only options here are shove or fold, right? First off, I can't rule out CO showing up with 86/63/A3. I can't count on him 3bet donk spewing either. This could be a horrible play on his part, but I don't have any previous information to lean on.

And the BB reraise here is very out of character with an overpair. 77/55/44 are all strong possibilities, and all have me crushed.

It's all yours, fellas. Teach me something.
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:26 AM #2 (permalink)  
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if BB doesn't have gappers in her range, then shove
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Da GOAT
Old 02-16-2009, 07:55 AM #3 (permalink)  
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u are totally crushed and should fold. neither opp has an overpair or draw here.

also i would def make a pot bet on flop as well as add an extra bb to pfr.
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 02-16-2009, 11:19 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 I'm typically just completing the SB in this situation PF, although a lot of people seem to like to raise the small pairs to build a bigger pot in case they flop a set. I'm definitely not in this camp but it does hold some merit. As DG said the flop bet could certainly be bigger but it's by no means too small.

Since you seem to know the BBs game pretty well have you seen her slowplay sets on draw-heavy boards in multiway pots before?
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Da GOAT
Old 02-16-2009, 12:21 PM #5 (permalink)  
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missed the preflop action, i def just limp.
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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Mr Bigcity
Old 02-16-2009, 01:05 PM #6 (permalink)  
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raise after the flop bigger.. a 2 dollar bet is just begging to get drawn out on. If they have a big pair they are not going anywhere and could actually reraise you which is perfect.
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bigspenda73
Old 02-16-2009, 01:17 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 I'm enjoying how ppl immediately jump on the flop bet size b/c they don't want to address the turn decision.
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settecba
Old 02-16-2009, 01:25 PM #8 (permalink)  
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why not putting this to pokerstove and see were youre at?

i would say BB range is 55+ according to what you said(maybe 33+, not likely though)

CO range is wide and mostly hands that beat you I think...I wont put it into pokerstove myself...but IMHO this is a fold
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Mr Bigcity
Old 02-16-2009, 01:41 PM #9 (permalink)  
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with the info he posted about his opponents its unlikely that the big blind has a big pocket pair and more than likely one of the 2 hit the draw on the turn so its a tough choice but I think you have to lay it down
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Da GOAT
Old 02-16-2009, 02:01 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I'm enjoying how ppl immediately jump on the flop bet size b/c they don't want to address the turn decision.
lol i answered.
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 02-16-2009, 02:06 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by settecba
I wont put it into pokerstove myself...but IMHO this is a fold
how do you know then? are you a 5-degree black belt in calculus?
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Da GOAT
Old 02-16-2009, 02:21 PM #12 (permalink)  
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lol
Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
 
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pocketfours
Old 02-16-2009, 02:26 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 1. You most certainly need to bet the turn. Also bet more on all streets. I think a raise preflop is MILES better than a complete because CO posted and didn't limp. Against a limp I would prefer to complete.

2. You should be very happy to get your money in against CO.

3. I don't know why you think BB has such a tight range preflop. To me it looks like she could easily have 6c7c, Ac7c, 8c9c or even 54. If you really know she doesn't play those hands (deep & in position & probable 3 way pot with a fish), then of course fold.

If both players were unknown I would shove and be pretty happy about it.
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kb coolman
Old 02-16-2009, 03:49 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I'm enjoying how ppl immediately jump on the flop bet size b/c they don't want to address the turn decision.
This. And I even addressed it in OP.

I still haven't seen any helpful information regarding how this should have been played. It's tricky because I'm up against BB whom I know very well, and the turn raise is out of character on this board with anything but a set. I'm not looking for monsters under the bed here, but I know her play very well.
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Old 02-16-2009, 05:49 PM #15 (permalink)  
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it totally doesn't make sense to flat 77 or 55 on the flop, though
if BB flats it's kind of a meh situation
the CO might be calling with retarded hands like gutshot + backdoor nut flush draw and be correct in doing so

worse, if the flush card hits you might chicken out and fold your set
now, if the BB did have 77 or 55 I'd make a note of that
she SHOULD fold 44 to your cbet since you're cbetting into two people on a drawy board

could this be 88 or 66? picked up gutshot + pair
flatting on this flop is not as bad because you're not paying off a flush anyway
CO could have tons of hands like 75

I hate multiway hands :/ I don't really understand how much the hand requirements to stack off vs. two opponents change because I never really messed around with that in pokerstove or anything
plus I play HU
so just ignore me actually
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kfaess
Old 02-16-2009, 06:56 PM #16 (permalink)  
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kfaess is an unknown quantity at this point
 IMO there is always a chance that someone is bluffing. BB could be trying to steal the pot on the turn /w a raise on a drawy board.

Since the CO is unkown, I think he could easily have an overpair here (how many times have you seen donks stack of with overpairs in situations like this at micros? I've seen it quite a bit)

You have a SET, and are only losing to 68, 63 (unlikely given PFR) A3, and a higher set.

If the BB really has the range you say she does, then I'm not quite sure what to make of her bet. Like someone else said, I'd like to see you put some ranges into pokerstove and calculate our equity.
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Fnord
Old 02-16-2009, 07:02 PM #17 (permalink)  
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I hate life and get it in on the turn. Too much money in the pot to think about folding bottom set at that point. Put another $25 behind and I hate life and fold.

Pre-flop is good. No one figures to have shit. I usually raise to 5x or more in this spot, but a buck even probably gets the job done. You'll win this a lot pre-flop or with a flop bet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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kb coolman
Old 02-16-2009, 08:12 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I hate life and get it in on the turn. Too much money in the pot to think about folding bottom set at that point. Put another $25 behind and I hate life and fold.

Pre-flop is good. No one figures to have shit. I usually raise to 5x or more in this spot, but a buck even probably gets the job done. You'll win this a lot pre-flop or with a flop bet.
I felt the same way at this point. There was just too much money in the pot. I shoved, BB called.

BB showed up with 77 (crushed me). CO showed up with 86 (crushed us both). I took notes, and I'm sure I'll end up getting my money back from him in the future.
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Fnord
Old 02-16-2009, 08:21 PM #19 (permalink)  
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This is a cooler. You flopped a set after being the aggressor pre-flop in a raised pot, you lost a buy-in or so and you made a meh call with nearly a third of your effective stack already in there. I wouldn't worry about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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kb coolman
Old 02-16-2009, 08:51 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Yea, I liked my play at the time, but started to really question myself about the turn play. I figured I'd bring it to you guys to make sure I wasn't just being results oriented since I lost the hand.
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