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Stripclubjunkie
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02-02-2006, 04:56 PM
Post subject: 22-77 UTG?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Stripclubs
Posts: 1,293
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You get dealt a small pair, 22-77 UTG. What to do? Raise? Call? I will probably get spanked if I open limp UTG. What pot odds are good enough preflop to call with a small pp hoping to set it?
Strip
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Depends on the table. In a 6max game I always raise these but you're talking about full.
My standard play is to fold but if there's a lot of limping and I think I can see a cheap flop I'll limp. (assuming 100BB stacks)
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Stripclubjunkie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Stripclubs
Posts: 1,293
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Yes I'm talking about full ring. I used to just raise 3xbb, but I dont think thats the right play. Couldn't I just call, and call raises if pot odds justifies it?How big pot odds am I looking for?
If I holds 88 the chance of flopping trips or quads is 11.8 so am I looking for 8,5:1 potodds? That just seem wrong?
Strip
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Stripclubjunkie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Stripclubs
Posts: 1,293
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Lets say you get TJs in the SB and you got 4 callers of 1$=4$ and you need to call 0.5$. Thats 8:1 pot odds, this is a insta call isn't? How big pot odds do you need to make the call?
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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Personally I like to play small pocket pairs with some money in the pot. If I am under the gun with 2-7 I don’t raise. Even when I am at a 6-player table. I limp in and I hope somebody raises behind me. As long as they have enough money left in their stack to cover 10 to 1 on the raise, (more or less the odds I am getting to hit my set) I am calling. I hope to hit my set and go from there. Now If I am in seat’s 6,7 or 8 and I have a pair of 7’s. I will throw a small raise in. I don’t like the idea of raising upfront with small pockets pairs. Lets say you raise 4x the BB with 44 UTG. Even if you get a good flop like 752 rainbow. Because you raised up front 4x the BB you have no idea of knowing where everybody else stands. They could easily have you beat with any pocket pair from 55 to AA. If I have 99 and somebody has raised 4x the BB up front I am just calling. Leaving you in a bad position. So I say play them soft, hope to hit your set and go from there.
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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depends on table texture, but i generally toss them. almost every other playable hand has folding equity against you. limping UTG can encourage others to limp and eventually the CO-BB are coming in with any two cards. so even if you improve, this is often the spot youll see set-over-set flops.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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r8ed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,524
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What's wrong with limping these and calling a small raise? You are looking to hit a set. If you do, you almost always have the best hand. Set over set happens less than 8% of the time if memory serves me right. Pocket pairs are the best starting hands if you play them right. If you have PT, look at your most winning hands profit-wise. All pocket pairs besides AK and possibly AQ (that's if you play them right).
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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I toss 22-66 in EP full ring. I limp all other pairs.
the problem is that your limping in EP encourages more limping, and then if there is a strong hand in BB or button, they have to raise to like 7BB and that destroys your calling odds. With 77+ I have more chance to hit a 1 card straight, and some chance of having an overpair, and more (comparatively) chance of having a higher set rather than a lower one.
In a 6 max game, u can raise it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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I open limp at a table where i dont expect to be raised too much. If they are raising more than the 10:1 i need then ill wait for QQ+ 
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
I toss 22-66 in EP full ring. I limp all other pairs.
the problem is that your limping in EP encourages more limping, and then if there is a strong hand in BB or button, they have to raise to like 7BB and that destroys your calling odds.
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I try limp all pairs 55 and up if the table is medium passive or better. If there are a couple bastard TAGs behind you, you might as well fold. IF raised behind, I might call a small raise based on the raiser. Against an "aware" player, you often should fold, because being out of position makes it difficult to get paid off it you hit. Sometimes, however you can score big here.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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If you are playing you game afraid to hit a set of 2's because somebody may have hit a set of 4's. Than you are not playing your cards right. And there is no way you are getting the best value out of your pocket pairs. We are talking NL here not Fixed. There are sometimes you have to pay them off. Play aggresive not scared. Good players smell scared money.
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Jimmy Mac
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Drinking your milkshake.
Posts: 950
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Are you guys seriously folding 22-77 UTG in low stakes NL? I thought I was tight 
I'm happy to limp these, I dont mind calling a 4-5BB raise with them so long as the opp has a stack to pay off my set. Set over set is so rare i don't even worry about it.
Moving up in stakes I can see this would be a problem, as an aware player will punish you, but there 'aint too many of those at my level.
(edit - just had a look at my pokertracker. 22-77 UTG & UTG+1: 118 total hands, I am winning 2.4 PtBB per hand playing them like this. Sample size is much too small though. As I said, I can see this play would need adjustment at higher stakes. )
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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what are the preflop percentages for say 33 against 3 random opponents? 4? theyre ALL going to have overcards, so unlike larger pocket pairs, you need to improve every time.
i dont really think that the implied odds are THAT juicy, considering the number of times youll be calling raises, trapped between raisers etc before even seeing a flop. and yes, just because its NL, doesnt mean that you can loosen up your game because of the elusive goal of destacking someone. devils advocate = that the positional factor is greater in NL, so theres a case for tossing even marginal hands UTG and EP.
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Jimmy Mac
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Drinking your milkshake.
Posts: 950
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hmmm.. I only have to win about around 10x my call on average when I make a set like this, in order for this play to be profitable (assuming I check/fold with no set). In the loose games I play, I don't think this is too much to expect, even given my positional disadvantage. These guys will take their TPTK or overpair to the felt alot of the time. I've even been all in on the flop with a set vs AK unimproved lol. Just my opinion, but I would feel like I was throwing away value folding these.
Whats your range from UTG, open raise AQ+/99+ fold everthing else?
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siknd
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 359
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actually, i usually unload AQ unsuited from utg. although there are times when ill raise KQ suited. depends on my image.
its not that i wont play the small pairs, but if the table is tight OR agressive i usually toss them. ill limp of course if most pots are unraised pf. im raising with 66-77 and above (minus some game-theory percentages)
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'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
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Jimmy Mac
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Drinking your milkshake.
Posts: 950
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heh, fair enough.
If my table is tight, or aggressive, I find another one
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