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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 12-01-2007, 07:27 AM     Post subject: 200NL Players #1 (permalink)  
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 Maybe you are playing 100NL and are getting ready to move up. Maybe you are already playing at 200NL and aren't a big winner in the games yet. I hope this post is useful in helping you to think about how to adjust to different player types.

Tables at 200NL are primarily filled with 3 types of players:

1). Fish
2). 8 or more Tabling TAG Regulars
3). 7 or fewer Tabling TAG Regulars

I have not run into more than a couple LAG Regulars at 200NL (VPIP roughly >27).


How do we play optimally versus these players?

1). Fish

If you are beating 100NL, you most likely understand the fundamental ways to best play against a fish. But, for review:

-Don’t bluff, value bet
-Isolate them
-Make sure you have the best possible seat at the table from which to isolate them (ideally, 1 seat to their left)

2). Regulars

- It is necessary to be able to differentiate between the heavy multi tabling regulars and the ones who are playing on fewer tables.

Pokerstars: Just go to the lobby, and open up several tables. In the lobby, under “Requests”, select “Find a Player”). If the regulars’ screen name is blocked from search, you are going to have to look at all the tables yourself and find out how many they are playing on. It’s also a good idea to check 400/600NL tables as well, since there are certainly some regulars who play on tables at multiple limits. There aren’t nearly as many tables running for those limits so it won’t take too long. As you find out how many tables the regular is playing on, make a note.

All other sites: Sorry, the only other sites I have only played on are Full Tilt/Ultimate Bet - and it’s been several months since I last played on either of them.

The first time you do this could take up to 45 minutes, but this information on the regulars is very valuable (the rest of this post pretty much explains why) Also, periodically I would do this for a couple minutes after a session as players are moving up/down in limits fairly often, which means there are going to be new regulars you need to know about.


a). 8 or more Tabling Regulars


Basically, they aren’t paying much attention to anything besides what they are doing because they are too busy trying to run so many tables!*

How can we exploit them?

First we need to know some fundamental aspects of their game that are going to be unique to them

- They are very rarely going to be bluffing in big pots
- They are not going to be attacking individual players. Likewise, you can attack them relentlessly without them doing much about it.
- They are going to have little, if any, sense of the flow of the table (i.e. who is stealing all the small pots, who is tilting, etc.)

To exploit their low bluffing frequency, all we need to do is avoid playing for stacks without a “nut” hand. It also generally means playing draws for stacks less often, since their betting/raising ranges are going to be tighter, meaning we have less fold equity.

To exploit their lack of awareness at the table:

- 3bet their late position opens with a very wide range. One-two gapper SC’s are good, K-xs/A-xs are also good, as well as small pairs. This does not apply versus nittier multitablers (PFR < 10-12%)
- Call their preflop raises from the CO on the BTN, and float their continuation bets. They aren’t going to be double barreling without a strong hand often, so it’s very easy to take the pot away if they check to you on the turn. Again, versus nits floating with air isn’t going to be very profitable since their range is tighter.

Generally, I would default to 3betting lighter when there is a player in the blinds who has a VPIP >25, as the pot has a higher likelihood of going multiway. However, I would default to just calling if there was a very weak player in the blinds, since we want to encourage him to enter the pot when we are involved.

- Don’t assume a heavy multitabling regular is 3betting you light, floating you light… basically don’t assume they are doing anything without some sort of hand. Don’t double barrel their floats unless an obvious scare card hits on the turn, and don’t call their reraises without proper implied odds, or a strong hand (usually J-J+).
- Don’t consider your recent actions (a.k.a. your image) at the table into an important decision in a hand versus this type of regular – they didn’t notice so they won’t be factoring it in to their decision making.

* It is a generalization to be sure, but it does apply to most heavy multitabling regulars at 200NL.


b). 7 or fewer Tabling Regulars



1). 3-7 Tabling crappy/mediocre TAG

He is not very tricky, and is playing mostly ABC poker – occasionally double barreling. He is mostly thinking on the first level (what do I have?). He is probably not considering his own image into decision making, though he is observant enough to notice when someone else is getting out of line.

To exploit him,

- Double barrel scare cards
- Float continuation bets on boards that potentially hit a wide range, and take the pot away on the turn if checked to
- Lead out on low coordinated flops (10-6-4cc) when you call a raise preflop out of position
- Check raise almost all K-x-x/A-x-x flops. He will be continuation betting these flops almost 100% of the time (it’s popular advice), but rarely has a hand strong enough to call a check/raise.


Besides those fundamentals, you need more specific reads on your crappy TAG regular to exploit him. If you do attack him too much, he will probably over adjust by either felting TPGK for 100BB in crazy spots or calling you down for 100BB with TPGK in similarly crazy spots. Just be cognizant of when he starts to adjust.


2). 3-7 Tabling solid TAG

He is more competent and is capable of moves, though his “moves” typically don’t consist of more than doing a good job of selecting spots to double barrel and taking away pots from weaker regulars/fish with superior hand reading. He is going to have some awareness of his image, as well as his opponents’ image (this will vary depending on how many tables he is playing at once).

Unlike the fish and crappy TAG regulars, he has no glaring fundamental weaknesses in his game. And unlike the heavy multitablers, who are mostly oblivious to table conditions/image, these regulars are able to pay attention.

However, all the regulars at 200NL share a universal weakness: relative inability to adjust to a player who is changing up the way they are playing.

For example, say you start off a session by 3betting relentlessly, and then start to float his c-bets instead. Unless you stop 3betting altogether, he is probably going to assume you are still 3betting light and therefore you can usually get all in preflop or on the flop fairly easily with your good hands. Or, if you start the session by floating him and then start to 3bet relentlessly, he probably won’t adjust for 15-20 orbits. (by then, I am usually wrapping up my session ).

There are a lot of ways to mix up how you are playing during a session, and what your opponent is thinking about you determines if/how you should adjust.



I wrote this all in one sitting tonight and undoubtedly there are some parts that are poorly worded or incomplete.


breathweapon: i look forward to hearing from you!
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Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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Galapogos
Old 12-01-2007, 07:38 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Nice post man.


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Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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Vi-Zer0Skill
Old 12-03-2007, 01:50 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
Nice post man.

thanks, i felt like making a long post would be a good idea since my WPP has been dropping recently
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
 
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PapalRage
Old 12-03-2007, 02:18 AM #4 (permalink)  
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very nice, playing 200nl at FTP and i find everything pretty accurate. I completely agree to the part where you say the regs cant adjust to a player mixing up their game. I have found that some regs saw me 3 betting light for a few days when i was experimenting, and for 3 weeks or so afterwards i would still get tons of action on my premiums from these players. Apparently if a reg makes a small note saying 3-bet light, they wont change the note for a while. Also, this post shows why its so important to take good notes.
ndultimate.
 
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silu73
Old 12-03-2007, 03:14 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Nice Post Vi!

I have noticed that since I am at $200NL I have increased my VPIP and 3-betting range (even OOP) considerably as more and more regulars know what you are up to when you play 16/14 to 18/15.

Ongame 200NL is now more like 3-5 regulars and 1-2 fish per table which is in stark contrast to even 100NL where there were less (mediocre) regulars.

My VPIP is now between 20/17 and 24/21 and I haven't properly adjusted to the regulars yet. However, I really like your idea of c/raising Axx and Kxx boards against them. I have been playing with Ongame fishes for so long that c/raising is hardly used in my game.

The only thing I have found which works quite well against them is 3-betting them light out of the blinds. Suddenly their Att to steal blinds falls under 30% if I have position on them.
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Miffed22001
Old 12-03-2007, 08:06 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 i just need to not run like shit and ill be fine
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Jager
Old 12-03-2007, 06:09 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I wanna know where I fit in...


Nice post.
"It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
 
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jyms
Old 12-03-2007, 07:00 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i just need to not run like shit and ill be fine
History says otherwise
YouTube - Classified - "Oh... Canada" [Official Video]
 
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Miffed22001
Old 12-03-2007, 07:56 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i just need to not run like shit and ill be fine
History says otherwise
thats more commonly referred to as 'overconfidence'
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BankItDrew
Old 12-05-2007, 07:39 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 I'm officially loving 200NL. Differences I've noticed over the past week/15k hands:

1) less limping more raising preflop
2) more F/E
3) more floating
4) more aggression on flop


Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!

Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?

Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
 
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Silly String
Old 12-05-2007, 04:16 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
I'm officially loving 200NL. Differences I've noticed over the past week/15k hands:

3) more floating
4) more aggression on flop
So I am guessing this means more people stay in the hand till the turn = more profit for tighter players?
Also do you mind sharing what adjustments have you made to counteract the above changes? especially OOP?
Floating:
maybe 2 barrel more
maybe bet flop, check turn with made hands more(lighter even though it commits us more often)

Aggression:
maybe b/3b more(lighter)
maybe cbet less (esp. if you have trouble reading hands/ranges really well)
Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
 
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Chopper
Old 12-05-2007, 05:15 PM #12 (permalink)  
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i like the fact you just defined what is happening TO me. i fit somewhere between TAG1 and TAG2. and, need to notice faster when i am being abused, and take some of the weak/tight out of my game.

thanks, Vi. "ctrl-D'd"
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 12-05-2007, 05:45 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Wow, great post. I have to say that pretty much everything you wrote was spot on. Normally I don't like posts that aren't about general theory and rather specificity but this was very good.

Only thing I'd do is change the 8 tabling Tag to 8 tabling Tap and 3-7 mediocore tag to 3-7 mediocore Tap. Then it's all good.
Check out the new blog!!!
 
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zook
Old 12-05-2007, 06:57 PM #14 (permalink)  
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You know it's funny. In all my obsessing over table selection and note-taking, I've never thought to open the "Find Player" dialog and see how many tables my opps are playing. I thank you sir, for the good advice.
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BankItDrew
Old 12-05-2007, 07:40 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
I'm officially loving 200NL. Differences I've noticed over the past week/15k hands:

3) more floating
4) more aggression on flop
So I am guessing this means more people stay in the hand till the turn = more profit for tighter players?
Also do you mind sharing what adjustments have you made to counteract the above changes? especially OOP?
Floating:
maybe 2 barrel more
maybe bet flop, check turn with made hands more(lighter even though it commits us more often)

Aggression:
maybe b/3b more(lighter)
maybe cbet less (esp. if you have trouble reading hands/ranges really well)
The biggest difference I've made is less cbets oop heads up. This includes both flops where I've made a pair and flops where I still have Ax. I've found that I can't auto cbet every flop HU, but it's important to mix up your game and include checking when you still have the best of it. Much of these decisions are reads based of course (aggression, passiveness, etc.).

I 2 barrel a lot more as well, but it's flop texture oriented 100%. Another important note when cbetting are the amounts. Practice various amounts factoring position, stacks sizes, flop texture, table image, strength of hand, etc.
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biondino
Old 12-05-2007, 07:49 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I have another tip, pretty quick if you have PT and are playing a reg. Simply check their position stats and see if they play position, and if they do, whether they focus on just the button or have a nice, solid upwards curve of aggression. There is a massive difference between a 20/15 playing 10% UTG and 30% on the button and playing 15% on both, and it hugely increases the information available to you.

(similarly, do they play too much from the blinds, another useful thing to know)
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biondino
Old 12-05-2007, 07:51 PM #17 (permalink)  
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I am, btw, "mediocre 3-7 tabling TAG" and my god, you have got my number. Not playing you, ever
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Chopper
Old 12-06-2007, 01:08 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly String
Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
I'm officially loving 200NL. Differences I've noticed over the past week/15k hands:

3) more floating
4) more aggression on flop
So I am guessing this means more people stay in the hand till the turn = more profit for tighter players?
Also do you mind sharing what adjustments have you made to counteract the above changes? especially OOP?
Floating:
maybe 2 barrel more
maybe bet flop, check turn with made hands more(lighter even though it commits us more often)

Aggression:
maybe b/3b more(lighter)
maybe cbet less (esp. if you have trouble reading hands/ranges really well)
The biggest difference I've made is less cbets oop heads up. This includes both flops where I've made a pair and flops where I still have Ax. I've found that I can't auto cbet every flop HU, but it's important to mix up your game and include checking when you still have the best of it. Much of these decisions are reads based of course (aggression, passiveness, etc.).

I 2 barrel a lot more as well, but it's flop texture oriented 100%. Another important note when cbetting are the amounts. Practice various amounts factoring position, stacks sizes, flop texture, table image, strength of hand, etc.
i notice you didnt mention the C/R. when "mixing it up," its great to throw the c/r in there with both air and AK when the AXX flops.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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