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2 hands where I've taken a passive line.

  
 
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Carroters
Old 03-22-2009, 08:14 PM     Post subject: 2 hands where I've taken a passive line. #1 (permalink)  
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 1. Villain here is 38/14/6 and incompetent. I'd been pwning him a bit b vs b and he sees me as aggro and maybe a (bluffer).

AK is usually an auto 3 bet for me in most situations. Here though I wanted to keep villains whole UTG opening range, disguise my hand and use my position. I'm not sure I'm in to good of a shape vs his 3 bet calling range.

I thought about rasing flop, but he's aggro and I don't like getting shipped on too much plus again I don't wana narrow his range to the continuing to a raise part when a good bit of that beats us and he's likely to barrell turns with air.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($34.98)
Hero (MP) ($20.83)
CO ($5.90)
Button ($19.79)
SB ($22.46)
BB ($22.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
UTG bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80, 4 folds

Flop: ($1.90) K, J, 9 (2 players)
UTG bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.90) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($9.90) 7 (2 players)
UTG bets $8, Hero calls $8

Total pot: $25.90


2. Villain is very aggro and doesn't like to fold. I've seen him call a c/r on the flop with 77 on J 9 x just to check it down. I was planning to call the river here, but I suddenly changed my mind and decided he wouldn't bluff his entire stack like this and I only really beat a bluff.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($16.27)
BB ($5)
UTG ($19.70)
MP ($32.57)
Hero (Button) ($34.29)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, K
1 fold, MP bets $0.80, Hero calls $0.80, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.90) 6, K, 10 (2 players)
MP bets $1.77, Hero calls $1.77

Turn: ($5.44) 7 (2 players)
MP bets $3, Hero calls $3

River: ($11.44) 8 (2 players)
MP bets $22.22, Hero folds

Total pot: $11.44

 
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Fnord
Old 03-22-2009, 08:48 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: River call is marginal and read driven.
Hand 2: Re-raise pre-flop. Raise flop. Raise turn. River fold is fine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Illfavor
Old 03-22-2009, 09:55 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 H1- If he's incompetent then won't he be going to the flop with most of his preflop opening range? Incompetent players don't fold to 3bets. And if anything, make it smallish or something.

That flop is really wet, and you have no idea what he has since we've "let his whole range through" to the flop. I think I'm raising this. WA/WB is great except for when it's not. I think I would have 3bet pre, RR flop and shoved turn expecting calls from a lot of draws and such. But that's just me.

H2- Lol. Dude. He's an aggro donk station thing. Raise him if he doesn't fold 3rd pair.
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Fnord
Old 03-22-2009, 10:04 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illfavor
Incompetent players don't fold to 3bets.
This.

I exploit the living shit out of this in my Live game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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ColdDecked
Old 03-23-2009, 07:53 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1 I'm probably raising that flop. It's really drawy and since you flatted preflop, wouldn't this be a good spot to fast play your AK? On a drier board I may choose the passive line and give some rope to my aggro opponents, but this really isn't the right flop for it. Raising the flop may also give you control of the hand, which is good when you're against an aggro player, especially if he bets hard. This way you won't get in so many difficult positions since he might just check the later streets.


Hand 2 is a great spot to raise the turn imo.

1. He might fold, and you take the pot down.
2. If he calls your raise, he might check the river, where you can check behind giving you a cheaper showdown.
3. You build a bigger pot for your flush.
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bigspenda73
Old 03-23-2009, 08:49 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 I play both the same and fold both rivers.
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minSim
Old 03-23-2009, 09:52 AM #7 (permalink)  
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1: I would 3bet pre with the dynamics you described.
Rivercall is marginal but I would still make it. I feels pretty weird to fold like the top hand in our range (besides maybe T8s), although that's not an argument on it's own in these games.

2: Raise somewhere against this villain. Against a TAG I'm more tempted to call. River is a fold.
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Stacks
Old 03-23-2009, 10:08 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: I play it the same, and agree with Fnord that the river spot is marginal and read driven. Can call some % of the time, fold the other %.

Also, I'm not 3betting much of my range UTG v MP. However, since villain is incompetent, then yeah you can 3bet your value hands because he calls with worse so much more often than a competent villain.

Hand 2: I play it the same. This would be my "standard" line. However, I don't mind 3betting preflop, or raising the flop against this particular villain. KQs can fit both into a profitable calling range preflop, and can be kinda marginal 3betting for value at times. If villain is calling with worse often, then it's fine. On the flop, given the 77 hand read, then you can easily raise this for value expecting villain to call all his smaller pairs.

However, him being very aggro/spewy, I kinda like calling down and letting him spew to us as his range is relatively wide, and he is likely to not get "too" crazy without a decent hand (like b/call, check/shove QQ/JJ).
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Carroters
Old 03-23-2009, 11:31 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 Thanks for the comments guys. I see what you mean about hand 1 being an easy 3 bet when he's likely yo stick around with worse and especially with hands we dominate. I've been looking for spots to tone down my aggresson with AK, because I feel I've been losing value and really just over playing the hand by constantly getting it in vs pre flop ranges like [AA, KK, QQ.] from certains players at this limit.

Maybe this guy is one I can confortably 3 bet.

Hand 2 I chose not to raise flop because obviously It's nice when someone this aggro is going to just keep firing. When he barrells the turn I very nearly raised, but thought that there was simply no need to get it in. Reason being, he'll bet or pay me off on the river anyways and If I hit my flush, I can stack his hands that beat top pair and possibly fold if I don't and if his bet size tells me I'm screwed.

Getting it in is probably good though, I mean I know villain is a spewing stationy wierdo yet I'm maybe not exploiting that to the fullest by not getting it in. One thing though is that I'd being playing pretty fit or fold vs him and if he's noticed this he'll probably fold to any sign of aggression with less than top pair, but idk maybe not.

 
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Illfavor
Old 03-23-2009, 01:29 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

However, him being very aggro/spewy, I kinda like calling down and letting him spew to us as his range is relatively wide, and he is likely to not get "too" crazy without a decent hand (like b/call, check/shove QQ/JJ).
Villain c/r with 3rd pair on a J9x board. How much crazier does he need to be for us to town him with a raise on the flop/turn? I don't understand why we shouldn't raise him on these early streets like every time. I can has 'splanation?
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Stacks
Old 03-23-2009, 02:28 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illfavor
Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

However, him being very aggro/spewy, I kinda like calling down and letting him spew to us as his range is relatively wide, and he is likely to not get "too" crazy without a decent hand (like b/call, check/shove QQ/JJ).
Villain c/r with 3rd pair on a J9x board. How much crazier does he need to be for us to town him with a raise on the flop/turn? I don't understand why we shouldn't raise him on these early streets like every time. I can has 'splanation?
I think it's a fine option. However, if this particular villain just likes to go bluff crazy when he sees "weakness" (and most players always assume a check/call is weakness). So by calling we keep in all of his random bluffs, which against this player will be plenty, and he isn't too likely to slow down. Given the board isn't too terribly drawy, and so many bluffs in his range, I think "I" personally perfer to take a more passive line and call a street or two, and evaluate as I go.

I mean it would be disgusting for us to raise and him decide to fold his QQ/JJ. Would he do it always? No, as we have seen in other hands and have reads. But might it happen? Yeah. And those hands he isn't likely to slow down with too much, and we obviously aren't scared of those hands hitting as it has so rarely.

Just my thoughts though. Against a bad player I don't mind getting it in and being more aggro about it, but it depends.
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Old 03-23-2009, 04:39 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I don't see how we can fold hand 1. Every draw misses (except for T8), our opponent is aggressive. He might be value betting worse because he's bad.
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