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eragotte

01-07-2010, 09:24 PM Post subject: 2 hands for review

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 504

just had a 2500 hand session where i dropped 4 buyins quick, didnt tilt and grinded them back in the next 4 hours, pretty pleased with my impulse control which is something i struggle with.

hand one, ive been monkeying around a lot, raising a lot IP and have got caught in an all in river push bluff with A high, my image is bad but ive been folding quickly to ALOT of 3bets. I think he 3bets oop with AQ+ 99+, i decided not to ship it because I dont think I lose much value vs JJ-99 on a low flop (he will still stack off) and hes not folding AK to a big 4bet and id rather not flip. so when the flop comes the big 6$ bet throws me off a lot. the board is super dry so it doesnt make a lot of sense with 99 or kk, especially kk since he should know I dont have AA much when I flat the 3bet and its not very unlikely i have a K. to me his bet says i thought ud fold to the 3bet now im panicking with AQ/JJ/TT although he could have AK or AA potentially... anyways the range I put him on says ship it...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($33)
SB ($17.20)
BB ($25)
UTG ($9.40)
Hero (MP) ($41.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q

, Q

1 fold, Hero bets $1, 2 folds, BB raises to $3.50, Hero calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.10) 4

, K

, 9

(2 players)
BB bets $6.25, Hero raises to $38.40 (All-In)

Total pot: $19.60

hand two : so we can all probably agree this is terrible unless u somehow think he is doing this with high cards (doubt it) but i snapped called because im dumb. but more I am looking for is a line check, when he limp min raises from there wtf is my play. it seems so dumb to fold (i almost never fold to min 3bets) but realistically im almost always drawing to two outs or sometimes vs AK i guess? its so odd, who really knows what he has and he is half stacked. the flop is as good it comes without setting so when he checks i cant help but bet...

so should I fold pre to min 3bet IP with 66?

check flop

b/f flop (but then I have 6 outs twice and does he ever have AK?)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($24.75)
BB ($24.95)
UTG ($25.35)
MP ($18.25)
CO ($16.40)
Hero (Button) ($72.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6

, 6

2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero bets $1, 2 folds, CO raises to $1.75, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.85) 3

, 4

, 2

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2.25, CO raises to $14.65 (All-In), Hero calls $12.40

Total pot: $33.15

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!Luck

01-07-2010, 10:08 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Location: Under a bridge

Posts: 1,367

Hand 1: Using your range your a 54% favorite preflop, but you ship it when your equity is 46%. Looks like you don't want to gamble when you are ahead but want to gamble when you are behind.

Board: 4h Ks 9d

45.571%{ QdQs }
54.429% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

Hand 2
Even if we assume his range is 99+,AJs+,AJo+ preflop, he isn't reraising here with anything but 99+ and even if a throw in aks your equity is 37% so you are calling 12.40 for a chance to win a pot of 16.40. Your personal equity will be .37*28.80=10.60. This is negative EV.

I don't play at your level but just a thought.

JKDS

01-07-2010, 10:34 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

wtf at H1:

ok so he bets 6 with AQ/JJ/TT, AA AK. The ones we beat fold to a raise, the ones we are fucked against ALWAYS call.

H2: im probably raising more pre. im almost never folding to this either just cuz we're in position and can fuck him up alot (his range isnt just KK+, itll often have some other bs in it).

flop, if we bet he never folds 55+ (we beta one hand, but it has a good amount of equity) nor does he fold 22-44 obv, and can find folds with like AK, AQ, AJ, KQ if those exist...or he can c/r some of those without making his nut c/r range too much weaker. Check flop, fold to the raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

surviva316

01-07-2010, 10:43 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

surviva316 will become famous soon enough

why would you ever in a million years fold preflop in hand 2?

your thought process in hand 1 seems wrong on like every single point you made. post reads on your villain, though, and maybe i'll trouble myself to tell you why you suck

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

rpm

01-08-2010, 01:34 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2009

Location: learnin'

Posts: 2,039

hand 1:
while against his donk betting range (i'll assume its the same as his pf 3betting range)your hand may be an equity favourite:

Board: 4h Kc 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.473% 44.36% 01.11% 19763 495.00 { QdQs }
Hand 1: 54.527% 53.42% 01.11% 23797 495.00 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

when you shove you CALL the bet against that range, and offer him $17 more dollars for the part of his range which has you crushed and is never folding (AA,AK,KK,99). (not counting card combos this is half of his cbetting range)

Board: 4h Kc 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 09.188% 09.19% 00.00% 2183 0.00 { QdQs }
Hand 1: 90.812% 90.81% 00.00% 21577 0.00 { KK+, 99, AKs, AKo

given you have position and villain is unlikely to keep owning himself with less than KQ, i like to call on the flop, keeping his range wide enough, and re-evaluating on the turn.

hand 2:
preflop is a no-brainer call. i probably dont bet the flop given if villain is not FOS then we only fold AK, and the rest kills us. certainly not calling the shove.

Board: 3c 4d 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.763% 37.79% 00.98% 29926 774.00 { 6h6s }
Hand 1: 61.237% 60.26% 00.98% 47726 774.00 { 22+, AKs, AKo }

that range is a bit lenient because he's far less likely to check shove AK than any of the paired hands (all of which have you beat, except 55)

rpm

01-08-2010, 01:36 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2009

Location: learnin'

Posts: 2,039

my bad, even his preflop 3b range has a slight edge in hand 1. i didnt look at the stove calculations, just assumed his range had enough air for QQ to be a slight favourite.

kmind

01-08-2010, 02:00 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Not Giving In

Posts: 4,240

Without reading other responses:

1. Sorry, but I have no idea what you are doing. Why why why why would we ever raise with QQ given what you said.

2. Pretty easy B/f flop. Our hand is too vulnerable and this bet is for pure value. Also, call that 3bet pre.

Micro2Macro

01-08-2010, 03:24 AM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: http://three-pair.com/

Posts: 4,463

h1 raising flop is the worst possible line you could take
h2 check back flop

"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

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http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

littleogre

01-08-2010, 08:32 AM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1,344

littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

Hand 1 is the epitome of a WA/WB situation. Call or fold flop depending on reads. No need to raise.

eragotte

01-08-2010, 02:16 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 504

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 45.473% 44.36% 01.11% 19763 495.00 { QdQs }
Hand 1: 54.527% 53.42% 01.11% 23797 495.00 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }

(I was taking KK out of his range with that bet which is pretty key)
he wound up calling me down with JJ so i thought I was a genius since that is squarely what I put him on in the most likely scenario. When I made the push I had banked down to like 2 seconds which I think is important for getting value from the worst hands (JJ, TT), do you really believe he would ever bet out like this with kk? I dont. I do understand the point that raising folds worse but gets called by better, but after almost timing out do you still think thats true? Also, Im happy to fold out AQ when he has that once in a while.

hand 2 is so hard for me to check flop lol, call pre then check a great flop IP, Im leaning towards that b/f line and take a note

eragotte

01-08-2010, 02:35 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 504

you guys all seem to super hate it when I stack off due to a bet-sizing read eh lol, it's obviously exploitable if people know or if some ftr guy comes and sits with me lol but i think it works quite often

JKDS

01-08-2010, 04:11 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

Ok fine. He calls with JJ and TT. 12 combinations. Ak, king on the board, 12 combinations. If that is his exact range its fine.

BUT ITS NOT. How can you know he doesnt have KQ here? Or that he doesnt fold TT? Or that he doesnt have 99? You cant be sure that his range is this tight and you're banking everything on it. Meanwhile, when you're ahead villain is drawing to 3 outs at the most (makes it 12% of the time...6 if we're betting or he bets turn which is highly likely) and we have literally nothing to fear from seeing a turn.

So why do you want to gambool on a hope when you can just wait one card?

Also, bet sizing reads are great. By all means follow through with your instincts and dont play scared. However, if its true that villain just told you his range then we should probably try to play perfectly against him.

The same thing applys in hand 2. Like, it sounds to me that you're scared shitless of seeing turns and rivers resulting in trying to win every pot on the flop even when its obv not +EV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

eragotte

01-08-2010, 05:22 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 504

Hmmm okay that was a deep post to me lol, gonna think bout it for a bit...

So my original thought for shipping it was because if I flat an A comes on the turn and he bets i fold Im going to stab someone, and I think Im ahead a lot.

by the time i finish timing down he basically knows my range is peaked at QQ, maybe KQ once is a while so Im playing my hand face up as KQ QQ or less and air. Since I have the top of my range, him playing properly against the range he should think I have will be +EV for me? from my perspective his call with JJ is probably a +EV call against the range he should think I have but Im out thinking him?

his bet just seems so odd, AK is posible but why would he wanna bet me out of a pot Im likely drawing close to dead on unless I have 99 which Im not folding. his 6$ if he has AA/AK/KK/99 allows me to play close to perfectly unless i have AK and he has AA/KK and i dont think he is bad enough to bet an amount that makes me play perfectly.

obviously villain can have dominating hands here and there but i felt me read was strong. one thing you bring up is that KQ owns the shit out of me here which i did not realize. but does he 3bet this oop?

the ending pots on the flop is probably a big leak, thats good advice, im going to experiment a bit with that when i start todays playing in 1.5hours

im trying to figure out if my huge red line is leaky or good. i feel like i might have it for the wrong reasons, i.e. i win with bluffs or get it all in light which may be partially true

surviva316

01-08-2010, 05:33 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

well even though you STILL haven't posted reads for villain, i'm going to proceed to tell you why you're wrong.

first off, unless you have notes on villain's 3b'ing style, your preflop range isn't always correct. in fact, i'd go as far as saying it usually is incorrect. for example, if I'M the BB in this hand, and i have reads on you that you're positionally aware and that you're folding to a lot of 3b's, my range is more likely to be {QQ+, AK} for value: {AJ, KJ+} as a bluff and i'd flip a coin with suited connecters and maybe flip two coins with Axs. in other words, i'm flatting half of the range you put him on unless i have any reason (or any history with you, which you provided no info on villain so i can only assume neither of these conditions apply) to believe that you'd call a 3b w 99-TT and AJ-KQ and stuff like that.

second off, you're at best only half right about villain's leading out range. there are two reasons why villain may lead out with his A range here: 1) he's a bot, and he held KK PF so he 3b it, now he flopped the nizzles, so of course he's going to bet/bet/bet and 2) he's a decent thinking player, and he realizes that he's leading this flop out with 100% of his range (nuts, mediocre hands and air all the same) because it's a K-high dry flop; if you have shown any sign of aggression then he may bet flop, c/shove turn assuming that you're floating dry A-high and K-high flops in 3b pots (yeah, i know, his bet sizing makes me wanna vomit if this is what he's doing, but even 25nlers who ARE capable of putting villains and themselves on ranges and have some basic understanding of the modern dynamics of poker are also incapable of having foresight in their bet-sizing....i know that that was me when I was at 25nl)

third off, you're just flat out wrong about his calling range. again, barring reads which you didn't supply, your jaw should've bounced off the carpet when he flipped JJ. yeah, you tanked, blah blah blah blah blah, it doesn't matter. he has NOOOOOOO reason to believe that you like EVER have worse than a K here seeing as how there are like NO draws and shoving anything worse than AK here would be retarded of you to do

for this reason, if there's any part of your range we're gonna raise here, it's probably going to be like a CiB with our C-range or something (though, i can't really imagine me actually doing this with any likely part of my range against an unknown)

i generally call flop, fold turn, eval river here feeling confident that there are very few 25nlers who are going to exploit this by double barreling their air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

surviva316

01-08-2010, 05:36 PM

#15 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

well poop, just realize that you're actually in the CO. ftr really needs to change that about their hand converter: ONE OFF THE BUTTON ISN'T FUCKING MP OR UTG OR ANY OF THIS CRAP IF IT'S 4 OR 5 HANDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyway, i still think your 3b'ing range is still a bit off and pretty much the rest of the analysis still applies

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

eragotte

01-08-2010, 06:57 PM

#16 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 504

okay so you may have a point with my reads not being nearly enough, i dont take stats because my hud is laggy and im moving to cakepoker soon where u cant use em, my reads are not much pre, just that he isnt getting out of line pre and he def isnt aggro enough to 3bet something like KJ, my main read comes from the bet sizing on the flop which is debatable on whether i should risk my stack but i was pretty confident

I dont see much benefit in calling and reevaluating turn so maybe i could use some help in seeing the benefits? his TT/JJ hands slow down so i get no value, his good hands bet again and i fold (although as ive repeated he has these rarely) and if he is ballsy and bets AQ/AJ again (since i banked) i just stationed myself into folding the best hand and further he gets free outs with those Ahighs and 2 outers...

allinall ya i prolly didnt have enough info i suppose but i dont think its as bad as u make it seem

JKDS

01-08-2010, 07:24 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

if his range is TT, JJ, AJ, AQ, then our plan is to call flop and let them bet turn so we can pwn him. not call flop and then fold. we want him to turn TT, JJ into bluffs and then attempt to bluff with AJ, AQ so we can snap call instead of making him fold out his AJ/AQ/tT/JJ on the flop.

@other reply: dont be thinking that ppl are 2+2 or FTR regulars that pwn 25nl. The guys you see playing arent good, they typically dont go to forums and dont really know much about poker. They know a bit, hence 25nl, and theyve probably read a few books...but its not like it sunk in. They probably know odds, "trouble hands", set mining, but like, thinking they wont bet in a way that allows you to play perfect is dumb imo, otherwise WE couldnt set mine profitably right?

anyways, @3beting kq, he might lol. without reads at all or any information i dont know what he'll do. But having people defend their blinds from Co steals 5 handed with KQ cant be that uncommon, and having people value raising KQ 5 handed in bbvsCo scenarios cant be that uncommon either imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

JKDS

01-08-2010, 07:28 PM

#18 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2008

Location: Chandler, AZ

Posts: 1,024

also one more thing: be careful about determining what villain perceives about you. You say that by tanking he'll call with TT/JJ cuz your hand looks like a bluff....well maybe. Villain could interpret the tank/raise as "haha i bruff you"....or he could interpret it as "haha, overplaying AK, nice try".

given history if you think that is how he reacts to tanks, then sure, its ok to lean the way you did. Just make sure that when you assume something about the way your opponent thinks that you have evidence to beleive so (not saying you didnt, but it wasnt provided in the thread).

Quote:

Originally Posted by OngBonga

But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.

eragotte

01-08-2010, 08:38 PM

#19 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 504

okay i get the call flop thing now, thanks, prolly is a lot better for when he has nothing which is a good goal, maybe playing scared a bit because the A is turning a lot in these situations lately for me lol

also to ur second post i prolly dont have a good enough read but i make these sizing tell reads so standardly at this limit and they prove right so often

ps where do you play and what limits? have a feeling if i wound up against u id get pwned

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($7.90)
Hero (UTG) ($83.60)
MP ($28.65)
CO ($45.45)
Button ($25)
SB ($23.80)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J

, 10

Hero bets $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, 3 folds

Flop: ($2.35) 7

, A

, 8

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, CO calls $1.50

Turn: ($5.35) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4.25, Hero raises to $8.50, 1 fold

Total pot: $13.85 | Rake: $0.65

Micro2Macro

01-08-2010, 09:21 PM

#20 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: http://three-pair.com/

Posts: 4,463

This last hand is also terrible.

pm me if you have msn/aim etc and want to discuss situations like this because you seem to be picking bad spots to bluff/bad spots to get tricky/aggressive and I think a good discussion will put you miles ahead of where you are right now and I am certain you are capable of making it to upper-low - mid stakes at least. knowing when to take a more passive line is crucial, whether it be c/c or c/f, and it essentially comes down to hand reading and how your opponent plays his range.

I can also show you how not to out-level yourself.

eragotte

01-09-2010, 01:24 AM

#21 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 504

thatd be awesome, ill pm you

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