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!Luck

01-11-2010, 03:29 AM Post subject: 2 Bluffs

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Location: Under a bridge

Posts: 1,367

So I have eked out a 3PTBB winrate over the last 10k hands or so of 5nl. Are these hands killing me or is this good practice or am just spewing.

Villain is 10/6/3 over 284.

When I get into these situation I feel like I can read there hand. Thus, my flop bet can make them all fold since it looks like they all miss. When I get reraised I am a bit confused so I put him on a flush draw. The check on the turn proves my assumption and a push because If I am correct he folds. Or am I just retarded?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($10)
MP1 ($9.29)
MP2 ($4.46)
MP3 ($1.87)
Hero (CO) ($5.18)
Button ($5.17)
SB ($4.90)
BB ($5.29)
UTG ($3.53)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5

, 5

1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.20, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.20, MP3 calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 1 fold, SB calls $0.18, BB calls $0.15

Flop: ($1.20) 3

, 7

, J

(6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.85, SB raises to $1.70, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.85

Turn: ($4.60) J

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.28 (All-In), SB calls $3 (All-In)

River: ($10.60) 3

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $10.60 | Rake: $0.50

OKAY: Logic The min raiser is 50/18/20 over 22 hands. So I am 3 betting this hand because I want to isolate. The Button is 19/19/33 over 26 hands, so I wasn't counting on him calling.

On flop: I have an opened ended straight draw. I see min bet by manics all the time so Ignore it to raise and take it on the flop, his check on the turn makes me semi confident that he was drawing so I push this hand since I have an open ended straight draw. River bet confuses me again so I push. He raises and now I know I am beat so I fold to save myself 1.85. I feel like I am retarded, but these min bets always mess me up.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($4.10)
MP1 ($5.41)
MP2 ($5.85)
MP3 ($2)
Hero (CO) ($5)
Button ($5.66)
SB ($5.67)
BB ($1.36)
UTG ($6.87)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6

, 5

3 folds, MP2 bets $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, Button calls $0.30, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.97) K

, 7

, 8

(3 players)
MP2 bets $0.05, Hero raises to $0.60, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.55

Turn: ($2.17) J

(2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $1.10, MP2 calls $1.10

River: ($4.37) J

(2 players)
MP2 bets $0.10, Hero raises to $2, MP2 raises to $3.85 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $8.37 | Rake: $0.40

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JR9477

01-11-2010, 04:29 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2008

Location: Iowa

Posts: 426

JR9477 is an unknown quantity at this point

These just seem terrible to me, in oh so many ways...

(Josh)

Fnord

01-11-2010, 05:02 AM

#3 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Hand 1: Fold to the flop c/r. He doesn't have a flush draw often given his line. Flush draws like to lead or make big scary raises.
Hand 2: Exploit his stupid bet by peeling the flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

surviva316

01-11-2010, 05:11 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2009

Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms

Posts: 1,625

surviva316 will become famous soon enough

hand 1 is so so so so so so bad. the flop is 6-way and the board is wet; do we really expect no one to have anything?!? also, our hand has zero-point-zero equity against most of everyone's continuing range. then he c/r's an amount that says he's never semi bluffing, and we float it? the turn card is the worst card in the deck to bluff at too, btw, because his air and marginal hands now think "well now there's NO WAY he has a J" and his TP+ hands have either improved, or been completely unaffected (i guess it's a scare card if he holds 73 lol).

hand 2 seems like an ok spot to triple barrel if all the draws miss both streets. i would shove the river if i'm going to do that, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BooG690

I just wanted to share singing vaginas.

eragotte

01-11-2010, 12:19 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 504

lol hand 1 is terrible, he probably has 77 or jj and doesnt need to raise because he has filled up and if you have a fd he wants you to hit. also he is 10/6, u really think hes min c/r bluffing?

hand 2 a tip in general is slow down on bluffing fish on flushing boards, once theyve called the flop they call the turn because if they have top pair theyre calling down and if they have a H theyre calling down. just flat the 5c on the flop, youre not really iso-ing the fish to 3 barrel him with air are you? I would think that is not ideal.

Stacks

01-11-2010, 05:47 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Hand 1 - You said you can "read his hand" in these situations. There is your first problem. You put him on just a flush draw, and played accordingly. When that's not the case. A flush draw 'might' be a part of his range, but that's not all that's there. In fact, a flush draw probably isn't a huge part of his range being he's pretty tight, and most villains tend to play draws on the passive side. Not to mention, your range for betting the flop should be relatively strong since there are so many people involved.

So instead of putting him on a single hand, you must account for all possible hands. Thus if you think he plays a flush draw this way on the flop by c/raising, you must also give weight to the possibility he plays 33/77/JJ this way. Just because he checks doesn't mean he missed. He wasn't the PFR, plenty of people to bet, not a terrible spot for a c/raise with his nut hands.

Also, I'm not a fan of betting this flop, as it's a pretty drawy flop, loads of villains, and your hand has doesn't have great equity when called. If they have a pair, you have like 8% equity, and if they have a flush draw, they have 9-15 outs.

Also, the turn paired, so his trips have now improved to either quads or a full house. There is less than a pot sized bet in the pot, so he isn't in any super hurry to get the money in.

spoonitnow

01-11-2010, 05:52 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: IRC Chat Room

Posts: 5,406

Hand 1: You got in 3rd pair against a nit 6-way on the flop. Congrats.

Hand 2: What hands of his fold the turn? Oh wait none of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

Fnord

01-11-2010, 06:29 PM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Hand 1: You got in 3rd pair against a nit 6-way on the flop. Congrats.

Third pair has more equity than the jank he's got in the hole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

!Luck

01-11-2010, 06:29 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Location: Under a bridge

Posts: 1,367

You guys are right and even though stupid shit like this works occasionally(rarely) it is 100% not +EV. Thus, I need stop. Part of my problem is I played a lot of home games, were check raising is nearly unheard of and little bets are always a sign of weakness. So, how do i fix this? I am extremely susceptible to slow playing. I get owned by it every time, because my mind thinks oh he is weak I can push him off, then when he calls I am like oh, he must be on a draw double barrel it is. And sure enough this works occasional for a modest gain, but when it doesn't I lose big, thus overall it is a huge loss.

Looking at these hands over and over is the way I will remove this leak. It is always about the range not the HAND, my new mantra. What is sad this is clearly addressed by Ed Miller in Poker theory and Practice. Where he says, paraphrased, the more likely that you are behind the more likely you should check rather than bet. In the end I just level myself.

Thank you. My next 10,000 hands will better.

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