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2 10,10 hands from today's horrible session.

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Carroters

03-09-2009, 11:50 PM Post subject: 2 10,10 hands from today's horrible session.

#1 (permalink)

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1. Villains is Laggy running 30/27/4 over 424 hands. I haven't made a hero call in a while, but couldn't see anything here he could bet for value on the river excpet maybe a slowplayed set. Felt so much like a missed draw pretending to be a value bet that I just went with it.

Betting the turn pretty much turns my hand into a bluff, but checking I flet was even worse as I'd be pretty much surrendering the pot on a turn that misses his range mostly. Felt betting was the lesser of 2 evils.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($10.43)
Hero (MP) ($20.70)
CO ($19.70)
Button ($19.70)
SB ($16.32)
BB ($4)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10

, 10

1 fold, Hero bets $0.80, 1 fold, Button calls $0.80, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.90) 9

, 2

, 4

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.65, Button calls $1.65

Turn: ($5.20) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $3.80, Button calls $3.80

River: ($12.80) 8

(2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $6.40, Hero calls $6.40

Total pot: $25.60

2. This is fucking horrible imo and needs berated so I don't play a hand this badly again.

Villain is 16/3/3 over 72 hands. I'll shut up now and await the flames.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($21.38)
SB ($33.01)
BB ($20)
UTG ($16.14)
MP ($19.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10

, 10

1 fold, MP calls $0.20, Hero bets $0.90, 2 folds, MP calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.10) 9

, 8

, 9

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.70, MP raises $3.40, Hero calls $1.70

Turn: ($8.90) 4

(2 players)
MP bets $4.45, Hero calls $4.45

River: ($17.80) 5

(2 players)
MP bets $10.95 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $17.80

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Micro2Macro

03-10-2009, 12:02 AM

#2 (permalink)

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In hand one being oop I'd probably bet sliiiightly smaller on flop and turn, not that it really makes much of a difference, but I like keeping the betting a bit smaller, like 60% of the pot or so (you'll keep the pot smaller and face a smaller bet on the river to hero call). I dunno if I hate or love that c/c on the river but I suppose its better than betting since we're against someone who will do that for us. If he's taking stabs at pots where his opponents give up the initiative it might be an ok call.

Hand 2: do you have any history of this guy bluffing paired flops like this? It's unlikely he has a hand here, but if he's been passive up until now I'd probably just dump it. If you plan on folding to a blank river, *imo*, calling any bets on earlier streets is baddd. It's like saying, 'well I don't believe you now so I call. I don't believe you again (turn) so I call', and then all of a sudden you believe him on the river, which does nothing to change the hand, and give up. I think you probably realize this though and just need it drilled into your head by others to make you act on it next time.

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Carroters

03-10-2009, 12:09 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Yeah, hand 1 I don't have any specific read on the guy it's mainly data mined hands I have on him. I do think he bluffs this river sometimes, but I mean seriously - what made hand can we put him on?

Hand 2: I didn't feel comfortable stacking off on this flop with 1010 for some reason. I mean he's repping a realy narrow range here. Totally agree about the flaw of calling him down to suddenly fold then river. It was a call to re evalulate type thing since for some reason, I just refrained from stacking off on this flop, but felt he was repping such a small range that I couldn't fold. I think I like getting it in on the flop now I look at the hand, this guy is basically an unknown fwiw.

Do people feel this is an easy stack off vs unknown most of the time on this board?

Micro2Macro

03-10-2009, 12:19 AM

#4 (permalink)

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If he's laggy and he thinks your weak he probably bets a busted draw. He could have caught his ace, or have some type of SC hand where he's made a pair. His range is so wide so it's tough to put him on a hand, so I go slightly less than 2/3 on flop, slightly less than 2/3 on turn, and then probably just c/c river, then make a note of what he had.

In the second hand I don't hate calling the flop so much, just because some people will literally shut down for the rest of the hand if they're bluffing. So flop call OK, turn is a fold though unless there is reason to believe he'd go aggro-donk with a oesd or low pair.

I dunno about getting it in on the flop. I'd be kinda afraid to see what villain turns up when he calls a shove since he most likely isnt calling with much worse. I never stack off here vs an unknown, unless he's been a bluffy spewtard so far and bought in for a weird amount like 2/3 max. This guy has been tight though over your sample. I'd just go with that and keep a close eye on him in the future after letting him have it.

poker_pup

03-10-2009, 01:24 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2007

Posts: 130

Oddly enough, I think you played hand #1 OK. I probably would have bet the flop harder. The turn's OK, and check/calling the river isn't awful. I've seen a lot of villians with similar betting patterns show something worse than pocket 10's at show down.

Hand #2, you should fold the flop. When somebody's playing that tight and check raises, it's time to fold.

Chamaican66

03-10-2009, 03:02 AM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 4

The first hand I would actually over bet the pot, not wanting him to call. with 10s I would be glad to take the pot right there and then, so i would say 120% of the pot would be appropiate and then if he did call i would make a bet depending on the next card, with an ace i would only bet 1/2 or even a 1/3 if i get raised i fold and cut my losses. if he calls then its up to u on what u do on the river.

Carroters

03-10-2009, 03:12 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chamaican66

lol this sort of advice is dangerous for beginners. Er, read the beginners digests and try again perhaps sir.

oskar

03-10-2009, 03:52 AM

#8 (permalink)

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I disagree that betting the turn makes hand 1 a bluff. It's unlikely that one of you hit that card, so why not keep betting? According to his stats he probaly has some kind of pocket pair here.
If you're going to c/c the river I think a bet would be a lot better... I'm assuming you're not trying to induce a bluff here, right? Just bet 1/3 or something. If he raises you, you can fold in peace and you get value out of weaker pairs.
I'd like to have some post-flop stats but I think I b/f the flop in hand 2 against this guy.
If the 3 in 16/3/3 is his steal%, that would be enough for me to fold the flop also. 3% raise from the button when olded to... that's not even retarded. He dreams one day to be retarded. There is 0 chance he'll take this line as a bluff, even if you've been aggressive post-flop.

Carroters

03-10-2009, 04:06 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

I disagree that betting the turn makes hand 1 a bluff. It's unlikely that one of you hit that card, so why not keep betting? According to his stats he probaly has some kind of pocket pair here.
If you're going to c/c the river I think a bet would be a lot better. Just bet 1/3 or something. If he raises you, you can fold in peace, and you get value out of weaker pairs.
I'd like to have some post-flop stats but I think I b/f the flop in hand 2 against this guy.

I really doubt he's calling the turn here much with a weak pp and certianly not the river. To make a general assumption in the absence of knowing how good this player is, based on his stats, I'd assume he wont call the turn on the basis that the ace misses my range a lot because he probably just sees another scary overcard he doesn't like. If I bet this river I really think I'm only getting called/raised by better hands.

On the river I think his range consists mainly of missed draws and made hands stronger than mine, so surely either c/f or c/c is better.

If he has decided to peel the turn with a worse hand that has some showdown value, I doubt he'll call a bet or turn his hand into a bluff. A bet here imo just folds out the stuff we beat in a free showdown, always gets called or raised by better and prevents him bluffing missed fds.

Carroters

03-10-2009, 04:12 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

I'm assuming you're not trying to induce a bluff here, right?

Not as such. I'm checking because I hate betting here and can decide based on bet sizing and timing whether I am good often enough to call.

oskar

03-10-2009, 04:31 AM

#11 (permalink)

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I think the c/c in hand 1 is pretty bad because you give him a chance to just check down his weaker hands and bet when he has you beat. The 1/2psb is pretty much never a bluff... so if you were ever going to fold there I think this would be the bet to fold to.
if you don't think you're getting called with worse by a 1/3psb on the river, then why do you bet the turn? - I think the turn bet is correct, but your assumption is not.

Your decisions should always be "What gets me the most money" Not "I hate to blah..."
In this case, if you cannot induce a bluff (he only flat calls 3% of his hands! - how many draws could he have?) and you thought a turn bet made sense, and you're going to c/c a value bet then it's always better to bet.
I think his range is pretty much 22-TT preflop. If you're positive enough that he won't continue past the turn without a set then you probably shouldn't bet. But I think you're wrong.

ArcadianRock

03-10-2009, 04:53 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Posts: 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chamaican66

I don't agree with this. Never bet expecting to fold it if he comes over the top, if you're trying to cut your losses then check it down, if he keeps betting and you don't like the hand you can fold it for much less and save yourself 1/3 or 1/2 the pot more.

03-10-2009, 06:15 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Hand 1: check the turn
He can have a lot of Asxs which just got there
and if he has 9x you're ahead anyway
you would only protect your hand against flush draws, but the price is not good since as you see you're playing a big pot out of position by betting that turn
so the times that you give a flush a free card are offset by the times that you make 9x fold

you should let 9x get a free card and fire the river because a river bet is much more callable since it ends the hand
I mean it's hard to advocate bet the turn and fold the river if the flush draw misses
if you check and he fires total air on the turn it's good to check

but that's why being OOP is shitty all your options suck in one way or the other since he can still try to get you for 3 streets with Asxs or a set

Hand 2: Carroters, if he's repping a narrow range we should call it off if he's aggressive

minSim

03-10-2009, 08:25 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Hand 1 I play the same if I won't expect to get bluffraised on the turn much. Othwise I'd c/c turn turn and have a tough river decision.

Hand 2 is very player dependant, tough to say anything on it. In general, looking at his stats villains seems more a calling type with good hands than a raising type with good or bad hands and he can have lot's of 9's here or AA-JJ sometimes. I think you can fold, but it's kind of a non-decision because it's all about how often you think he's doing this with smaller PP's/air. Some do it a lot, some never.

Carroters

03-10-2009, 12:18 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Thanks for all the input guys. All the options really do seem to suck on hand 1 which in a way makes it interesting finding the best one. He had A4 of spades here and I just felt totally owned

Oskar, maybe you're right about the bet size rarely being a bluff, but FWIW, I have noticed a certain type of scared donk, typically a station attempt undersized scared bluffs as supposed to betting anywhere near the size of the pot. Don't know if anyone else has noticed this at the micros.

loonychune

03-10-2009, 02:25 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

I have noticed a certain type of scared donk, typically a station attempt undersized scared bluffs as supposed to betting anywhere near the size of the pot. Don't know if anyone else has noticed this at the micros.

I have. Thing is though, the pot is pretty big AND I think he bets too much in this spot for it to be a scared bluff often enough to make calling profitable. I think 1/4 pot sized bets and less, from opponents who might be inclined to run a scared bluff, are probably gonna show a profit, but I don't feel like a half pot bet on the river in this spot is a scared bluff or weak blocker at least 1 in 4 times.

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