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geno9
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09-09-2009, 09:02 PM
Post subject: 10s SB v BB
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: east coast
Posts: 157
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not running a HUD but he seemed like a TAGG .. although he seen me make a real donk move (vs another player) a few hands before where UTG raised to 1 and i pushed over and he repopped and i called his all in with AQo v KK and hit the A. and than a few hands we had a battle where i took half his stack .. now this where i basically was lost, couldnt tell if it was a monster or not.....
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($42.70)
UTG ($12.20)
MP ($18.25)
Button ($38.50)
Hero (SB) ($56.45)
Preflop: Hero is SB with 10 , 10
3 folds, Hero bets $0.75, BB raises to $2.25, Hero calls $1.50
Flop: ($4.50) 2 , 4, 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $3.40, Hero ???
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philly and the phanatics
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,109
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i shouldnt even be in this forum (only play 5nl) but i think to me this looks like you can get it in i think if he had aces or kings or queens he would want you to call no? giving you a smaller bet, or maybe hes betting so big cause of the flush out there....no way im folding
just my .02
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Looks like you folded but just flat and see a turn.
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donkbee
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WELP
Join Date: May 2005
Location: so close but so far
Posts: 3,604
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{from SH}
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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if you're going to fold on this flop just fold preflop
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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If you are calling preflop here, you are assuming he is 3bet bluffing with a decent frequency. So on a flop like this, you obv can't fold. Given stack sizes check/raising this flop is terrible spew. Even at 100bb, I wouldn't like c/raising this flop, as you have like the bottom of your value range, and we can't expect him to stack off with much worse, other than flush draws, 99 (unlikely in his range).
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
if you're going to fold on this flop just fold preflop
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this times a million. like it's really important to understand that this is the case (and why).
bet sizing isn't really concerning 'cause if villain is aware enough to know that he doesn't need to bluff this dry of a board in a 3bet pot more than 1/2 PSB, then he's aware enough to know that he shouldn't vbet JJ+ more either.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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SushiWizard
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 43
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Why cant we just check-bomb this flop? I think the pot is big enough at this point to justify protecting it. Theres lots of over cards in his range, what are you going to do if you check/call and a broadway shows up on the turn? Even another club devalues your hand, as you have no blocker.
Theres not a better flop you can ask for besides one containing another Ten. Just get it in, you have no way of telling if youre beat or not. if he shows up with QQ or something owell thats variance for you.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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b/c his range for stacking off here 170bb deep creates such an equity disadvantage that we should value that fact over some pseduo-bs idea of protecting our hand here.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SushiWizard
Why cant we just check-bomb this flop? I think the pot is big enough at this point to justify protecting it. Theres lots of over cards in his range, what are you going to do if you check/call and a broadway shows up on the turn? Even another club devalues your hand, as you have no blocker.
Theres not a better flop you can ask for besides one containing another Ten. Just get it in, you have no way of telling if youre beat or not. if he shows up with QQ or something owell thats variance for you.
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If we c/raise this flop, and he shows up with a better hand, that is hardly variance. That is spew. That is money lost that a better player wouldn't have lost in this spot, which means you are making a mistake.
Simply put, this is going to be a tough situation to play correctly readless. Even with reads, it's not going to be an ideal spot by any means.
If we check/raise this flop, he is only going to stack off with a hand that is at worse flipping with us. And when we are behind we have 9%ish equity. Hardly an ideal spot.
Sure, the hand is only going to get more difficult when we c/c, and he bets the turn, but c/calling the flop is clearly the best play (even if it's difficult). On the turn it's going to come down to (1) If the turn card hits his range, (2) his 2barreling frequency in a 3bet pot, (3) hands in his value range, and (4) pot odds.
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if I bet this flop as the pf 3bettor, I am continuing on the turn with 100% of my range (I don't bet this flop every time though)
my value range is A2s, JJ+,XcYc and I'll probably bet 60% pot
what cards are you calling on the turn other than a T? I mean Ace probably hits my flush draw range, but a king or queen doesn't help me much
Are you calling any low non-club?
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SushiWizard
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 43
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SushiWizard
Why cant we just check-bomb this flop? I think the pot is big enough at this point to justify protecting it. Theres lots of over cards in his range, what are you going to do if you check/call and a broadway shows up on the turn? Even another club devalues your hand, as you have no blocker.
Theres not a better flop you can ask for besides one containing another Ten. Just get it in, you have no way of telling if youre beat or not. if he shows up with QQ or something owell thats variance for you.
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If we c/raise this flop, and he shows up with a better hand, that is hardly variance. That is spew. That is money lost that a better player wouldn't have lost in this spot, which means you are making a mistake.
Simply put, this is going to be a tough situation to play correctly readless. Even with reads, it's not going to be an ideal spot by any means.
If we check/raise this flop, he is only going to stack off with a hand that is at worse flipping with us. And when we are behind we have 9%ish equity. Hardly an ideal spot.
Sure, the hand is only going to get more difficult when we c/c, and he bets the turn, but c/calling the flop is clearly the best play (even if it's difficult). On the turn it's going to come down to (1) If the turn card hits his range, (2) his 2barreling frequency in a 3bet pot, (3) hands in his value range, and (4) pot odds. |
So if we are worried about being against an overpair, why did we call preflop in the first place? I just dont see how you can take a passive line here, on this flop and when the pot is so big aleady.
OP seriosly just fold TT next time if youre not going to be comfortable continuing on flop like this.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SushiWizard
Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SushiWizard
Why cant we just check-bomb this flop? I think the pot is big enough at this point to justify protecting it. Theres lots of over cards in his range, what are you going to do if you check/call and a broadway shows up on the turn? Even another club devalues your hand, as you have no blocker.
Theres not a better flop you can ask for besides one containing another Ten. Just get it in, you have no way of telling if youre beat or not. if he shows up with QQ or something owell thats variance for you.
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If we c/raise this flop, and he shows up with a better hand, that is hardly variance. That is spew. That is money lost that a better player wouldn't have lost in this spot, which means you are making a mistake.
Simply put, this is going to be a tough situation to play correctly readless. Even with reads, it's not going to be an ideal spot by any means.
If we check/raise this flop, he is only going to stack off with a hand that is at worse flipping with us. And when we are behind we have 9%ish equity. Hardly an ideal spot.
Sure, the hand is only going to get more difficult when we c/c, and he bets the turn, but c/calling the flop is clearly the best play (even if it's difficult). On the turn it's going to come down to (1) If the turn card hits his range, (2) his 2barreling frequency in a 3bet pot, (3) hands in his value range, and (4) pot odds. |
So if we are worried about being against an overpair, why did we call preflop in the first place? I just dont see how you can take a passive line here, on this flop and when the pot is so big aleady.
OP seriosly just fold TT next time if youre not going to be comfortable continuing on flop like this. |
If our assumption is that he is 3betting a wide enough range that calling TT preflop is +EV (which is probably is given bvb, etc), then we are comfortable continuing on this flop. We just want to continue in a way that is +EV against his range. C/shoving so he can fold his bluffs, and only continue with JJ+ just isn't the manner to do it. I don't think I like a check/raise even 100bb deep, let alone 170bb deep. That's just letting him continue with only better hands, and fold all worse.
And your statement "if you are worried about being against an overpair, then why did you call preflop" is just ignorant. Overpairs are a part of his range, obviously. However, preflop we felt there was enough other worse hands that calling preflop was correct. Just because we made the call preflop doesn't mean that now we have assumed he doesn't have an overpair, and now play TT like the nuts. We have just assumed that overpairs were not the only hand in his range. We have to maximize against his range. And c/raising so we stack off and lose to his overpairs, and let him fold his worse hands is dumb. Simple as that.
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plus we have like odds to setmine with these stacks
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JoeHaw
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 186
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
b/c his range for stacking off here 170bb deep creates such an equity disadvantage that we should value that fact over some pseduo-bs idea of protecting our hand here.
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I think I understand that concept but I don't understand how that translates into b/c instead of c/c...
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JoeHaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
b/c his range for stacking off here 170bb deep creates such an equity disadvantage that we should value that fact over some pseduo-bs idea of protecting our hand here.
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I think I understand that concept but I don't understand how that translates into b/c instead of c/c... |
b/c = because
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JoeHaw
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 186
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Haha wow I probably should've figured that one out.
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I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.
-Thomas Jefferson
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.
-Thomas Edison
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geno9
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Straight
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: east coast
Posts: 157
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stacks if you're saying c/c this flop is the right line, what is the next play here? c/c calling the turn? clubs, overpairs, overs, are obv in his range and i just felt like being oop is just to hard to play this. c/c down to the river i think isnt +ev. there are so many cards in his range that make the turn and river impossible to play this because he is betting 100% of the time on the turn/river and only a 10 satisifies me im ahead here.
basically in all of this, if we c/c the flop what is the next play?
sortry im drunk when i read this lol...
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SushiWizard
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 43
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Stacks I understand what you are saying. However I feel that in this situation we are going to get owned a lot, especially against better players. This is a difficult spot no matter what line you take. How do you fee about leading at this flop though?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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jesus christ god forbid we'd ever have to make a semi-difficult decision
this isn't tiddlywinks boys
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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If he's betting the flop, turn, and river, with a 100% frequency, then depending on his 3bet frequency, and the hands in which he does it with, we would be calling 3 streets.
However, I doubt this is the case. THe majority of the people don't 3bet light, then barrel off numerous streets. Even when it is somewhat evident that we don't have an very strong range. Here, depending on his 3bet frequency, we can very likely have TT-AA, where we might 4bet QQ-AA some % of the time, while calling some of the time as well.
I doubt the majority of villains are going to barrel the turn and river attempting to take us off of our overpairs. I think, depending on the villain, we can make some pretty easy folds on the turn or river, depending on stack sizes and pot odds. Us being 170bb deep also probably makes it unlikely he will barrel, even though us being deep probably makes it more likely we will fold to a bet/bet/shove line.
As far as leading the flop, I dislike it quite a lot. It's seems to me as another way of letting him fold worse, and continue with better. His 3betting range is likely pretty polarized being this deep. He either has nut overpairs that he wants to stack off with on this board, or right now he has either air or overcards. If we lead, he folds his air (which we beat), as well as his overcards the majority of the time (which we beat). He calls with all overpairs obv.
We have a somewhat marginal hand here, I don't see why everyone wants to deviate from the standard line of check/calling against a polarized range with a marginal hand. C/c, check/evaluate, probably folding the turn with a somewhat decent frequency.
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Leading flop is so terrible, worse than c/r - which is uber terrible to begin with.
c/c flop, let's see what he does on the turn.
When it comes to the turn, would we rather call a 2nd barrel on a blank (say 7h), or an Ah?
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by geno9
impossible to play this because he is betting 100% of the time on the turn/river and only a 10 satisifies me im ahead here.
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i lol'ed a bit here. if he's betting 100% of the time on the turn/river, then c/r'ing ANY of our value range is super dooper retarded.
and has been mentioned, considering a calling the 3b pre and then c/f on this flop is super dooper retarded for two reasons: 1) he's betting his whole range here, so if we though we were good enough against his range pre to consider, then we're still good after he bets and 2) there is practically no such thing as a better flop for our hand than this one, except for one that contains a ten, so unless you called pre for set value, there's no way you can fold on this flop.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
jesus christ god forbid we'd ever have to make a semi-difficult decision
this isn't tiddlywinks boys
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I tried playing tiddlywinks for awhile, but I didn't have the bankroll for it.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Leading flop is so terrible
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lol no? I think checking this flop back with ace high is pretty standard so if we think villain will do that might as well bet
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Micro2Macro
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: http://three-pair.com/
Posts: 4,463
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Leading flop is so terrible
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lol no? I think checking this flop back with ace high is pretty standard so if we think villain will do that might as well bet |
lol gtfo, everyone cbets too much in 3bet pots - there's no way you can expect a guy like this as OP described to check an ace here. What are you going to get value from by leading and how would you feel about being raised?
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"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."
Check out my blog here!
"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"
http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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above my level but i think if op was that scared of villain having an over pair he should have folded pre-flop. I'm not sure why the c-bet gave him so much concern as it is super standard.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Leading flop is so terrible
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lol no? I think checking this flop back with ace high is pretty standard so if we think villain will do that might as well bet |
lol gtfo, everyone cbets too much in 3bet pots - there's no way you can expect a guy like this as OP described to check an ace here. What are you going to get value from by leading and how would you feel about being raised? |
Ya ppl do cbet too much, I've pretty much given up on leading anything but air nowawdays.
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