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Evilpopcorn
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05-13-2009, 08:38 PM
Post subject: 10NL : TpTk in min 3-bet pot
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Less than 50 hands on villian so no reads.
Ok so i decided just to call as i was gonna play the rest of the hand OOP, and even tho they betting really small its still a 3-bet. So decide to take a sort of fit-fold line with the added value of the extra player for when i "fit". Any thoughts on this ?
Ok so now i have hit my TpTk 3 ways on a drawy board. What does his min raise IP mean most of the time ? What line is best here and why?
Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
UTG: $21.70
MP: $7.40
CO: $2.65
BTN: $5.85
SB: $10.05
Hero (BB): $10.00
Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with K A
UTG raises to $0.20, MP raises to $0.50, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.40, UTG calls $0.30
Flop: ($1.55) Q K 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $1.10, UTG folds, MP raises to $2.20, Hero raises to $9.50 all in, MP calls $4.70 all in
Turn: ($15.35) T (2 players - 2 are all in)
River: ($15.35) 9 (2 players - 2 are all in)
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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Why do you raise all-in here? Is it for value? What worse hands can possibly call your all-in bet? A king with a jack kicker will not be calling that all-in. Remember, that is the object of a value bet. You want worse hands to call. This is a bad value bet.
Is it a bluff? What better hands are folding? Again, that is the object of a bluff. You want worse hands to fold. You may get two pair to fold, you may get a set to fold, you MAY a straight to fold (not very likely) but you probably won't get a flush to fold. So it's a bad bluff.
There was no reason for you to go all-in here. The 50 hands you have may tell us something of how he's playing. I fold here without any reads.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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lol @ me. Wasnt supposed to post that i jammed flop. Yeah i didnt like my jam either after it happened. Weird raises preflop, i hit TpTk in my fit-fold mode, and on a drawy board. Made me spazz out.
So what line u take here postlop, and also is my cold call preflop ok ?
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TAGurit
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 56
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BooG690
Why do you raise all-in here? Is it for value? What worse hands can possibly call your all-in bet?
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+1
i would have raised 3x pf first of all and going all in here just seems like kamikaze poker to me. you could get the same info if you just raised him to $5 and not lose your whole br if your crushed.
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TAGurit
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BooG690
Why do you raise all-in here? Is it for value? What worse hands can possibly call your all-in bet?
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+1
i would have raised 3x pf first of all and going all in here just seems like kamikaze poker to me. you could get the same info if you just raised him to $5 and not lose your whole br if your crushed. |
Ok if we 4-bet preflop are we folding to a 5-bet ?
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BooG690
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,439
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I personally would have raised up the action preflop and get UTG out of here. You may have gotten all the information you needed with that raise. He reraised a raise from UTG so I'm going to have to say MP is mighty strong here.
I don't hate the bet on the flop...but I'm gonzo when I see a raise and that flop.
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That's how winners play; we convince the other guy he's making all the right moves.
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TAGurit
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 56
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TAGurit
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BooG690
Why do you raise all-in here? Is it for value? What worse hands can possibly call your all-in bet?
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+1
i would have raised 3x pf first of all and going all in here just seems like kamikaze poker to me. you could get the same info if you just raised him to $5 and not lose your whole br if your crushed. |
Ok if we 4-bet preflop are we folding to a 5-bet ? |
thats really villain dependent for me. how tight is this guy (i know you have no stats but do you have a initial read?) i'd probably shove if someone came over the top with no reads and keep my fingers crossed.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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You are starting most of your post with "Less than 50 hands on villian so no reads."
Are you 24-tabling? you should have some sort of a read even with less than 50 hands. I mean, what kinds of hands he has shown so far, has he raised pre or not, is he passive, agressive, a station, whatever. I mean, you probably cant soul read this villain yet, but some sort of a read you should have.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Well in HEM at the mo i have his stats as :
(VP$IP/PFR [Street Aggression] 3-bet%)
38/10 [1 inf 1] 13% over 22 hands
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
You are starting most of your post with "Less than 50 hands on villian so no reads."
Are you 24-tabling? you should have some sort of a read even with less than 50 hands. I mean, what kinds of hands he has shown so far, has he raised pre or not, is he passive, agressive, a station, whatever. I mean, you probably cant soul read this villain yet, but some sort of a read you should have.
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Think i will adjust this to less than 20 hands.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by settecba
You are starting most of your post with "Less than 50 hands on villian so no reads."
Are you 24-tabling? you should have some sort of a read even with less than 50 hands. I mean, what kinds of hands he has shown so far, has he raised pre or not, is he passive, agressive, a station, whatever. I mean, you probably cant soul read this villain yet, but some sort of a read you should have.
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Think i will adjust this to less than 20 hands. |
LOL...Yeah, thats what I meant, not start taking notes and pay attention to how others are playing.
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Also, reads are not only villains stats. I particularly dont use a HUD, and a lot might argue against that, but the cool side is you get used to take a lot of notes and rely on your reads.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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At the moment after every 200 hands i have on a villian i go through all his hands in HEM that went to showdown and complile notes on him.
I admit tho that for those first 200 hands i dont make much notes on villian and rely for the most part on my HUD.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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if a player is pretty loose I often have reads on him before even sit down just from watching the table while im on the waiting list.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pelion
if a player is pretty loose I often have reads on him before even sit down just from watching the table while im on the waiting list.
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^^^^^^^^^^^Thats what I meant.
The "50 hands so no reads" in EVERY SINGLE ONE of your threads looks kinda lazy. I know this sounds harsh, i dont mean it. I just wanted to point out that you SHOULD have reads on these guys.
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siltstrider
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 85
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50 hands is at least 30 minutes of play. If you've played with a guy for 30+ minutes, you should have some idea of how he plays. You're missing out on what is pretty much free money by just playing blindly for 2+ hours until you have 200 hands on a guy.
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goood this is great
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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i'm folding preflop lol. and wow the flop is horrid
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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i don't personally 4bet here because we have to fold to a 5bet so often (unless opponent is completely bonkers i'm almost never stacking off w AKs preflop at these stakes because we're never dominating and we're often dominated and almost always a slight underdog). also remember that AKs plays fine in multi-way pots, so i don't think we need to just blow everyone else out of the hand.
i blow at monotone flops but wtf to the 3bet all in. i personally c/c because we're WA/WB, but i don't think this is the right play. if he checks i'm betting almost any turn (a spade as a bluff, a non-spade as an under-represented value bet).
EDIT: just realized you weren't the pre-flop raiser. now i can say with confidence that i'm checking 199% of the time and calling most of the time dependent on bet sizing (if he bets <1/2 PSB then we have a decision).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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folding PF is bad, it's only 5BB's, it's not like it went .40>1.40 and we called.
I would have 4bet
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Okay so as played preflop is the c/c line the best on this board 3 ways as recommended by a previous poster.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Okay so as played preflop is the c/c line the best on this board 3 ways as recommended by a previous poster.
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yo, son! i'm not just some "a previous poster"
if you can justify another line to me i'd consider it, but as of right now donking doesn't make any sense, c/r turns your hand into a bluff and i'm not even going to dignify c/f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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JKDS
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 1,024
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id stop treating it as a 3bet preflop honestly. the initial 3bet is just a bit larger than normal and could be due to a wide range. Id expect AJs to "3bet" here for instance as well as 99 and KQo. This is only because the initial bet was a minbet, which from utg could mean a small pocket pair, a weak hand that he shouldnt be playing from utg but cant fold (QJs?) or a monster. Not as concerned about monster...but its still possible, and i think this is the way most players see it at 10nl.
So, i like a 4b pre to like 1.30 or so. I fold to a 5b from utg and probably from the other player as well. I expect to be called alot more often though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
But no, jkds is lolvillager and anyone who wants to string him up is sighbad.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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4b pre
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Pre-flop is badish.
Post-flop is suicide.
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Okay so as played preflop is the c/c line the best on this board 3 ways as recommended by a previous poster.
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yo, son! i'm not just some "a previous poster"
if you can justify another line to me i'd consider it, but as of right now donking doesn't make any sense, c/r turns your hand into a bluff and i'm not even going to dignify c/f |
My appolgies Sir surviva316 
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