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FriskyPirate

01-12-2009, 04:54 AM Post subject: 10NL seeking 4bet advice

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2008

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Villian is 16 | 11. I'm not sure what to do when I am 3bet with hands like TT and JJ...is it better to call and see if you flop a set or is it better to let the hand go or is it situational?
--
$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
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Stacks:
UTG cooter3tx ($8.80)
UTG+1 Hero ($10.00)
CO chris18464 ($5.05)
BTN hazing74 ($12.55)
SB Cpn Comeback ($5.70)
BB spiritsport ($6.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold, hazing74 raises to $1.20, 2 folds, $0.90 to Hero ($9.70)?

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animal_chin

01-12-2009, 05:23 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Read this.

Ok, now that that is done, I could have sworn that article said you need 15x the raise when I first read it, but I guess not. So this is a marginal call. I would probably call just because it seems like the average 3 bettor really wants to get all in if the flop comes all unders to his presumed AA, KK or sometimes QQ. But remember if you don't hit your set and the flop comes all unders to your JJ, it is probably no good here. So don't get trapped into calling/raising flop bets. If villain checks flop then you might be up against AK so you could possibly bet the turn with caution.

Edit: Also raise to 4xBB + 1BB for every limper preflop.

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Robb

01-12-2009, 03:17 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

I'll add two links. The first applies to this thread. The second applies to your 75s HH also in the BC right now.

Question regarding 3betting and 4betting by a reasonably good player with awesome insights provided by guys like Fnord and Spoonitnow. Good discussion of 3betting, where, when, why and how.

Playing PP's Read Lukie's post, 3rd from top, and follow from there. Discusses playing small pp's in midstakes games, but the concepts are pretty well explained, especially in Fnord's, Renton's, Miff's, and Lukie's posts throughout thread. At the end, thread hits implied odds for sc's, and JefferyGB weighs in with more great content. This thread got me to dump the silly 10x set odds in favor of 15x at 10nl and 20x at 25nl.

Finally, some advice from me. Yes, you are correct that reacting to a 3bet when you've got JJ/TT is very situational. At 10nl, where certain villains are willing to stack off w/ AJ+ and most pp's, you might be 4betting for VALUE instead of fold equity (i.e. praying for a call). You've gotta know your opponents. Get in the habit of noting what they'll stack off with preflop - especially in hands you're NOT involved in.

I use shorthand to make a note about stack off ranges.

SOL = stacks off light (worse than TPTK)
SOL pre 88 = stacks off preflop w/ 88

You get the idea. If they get out of line in a big pot, I wanna know what crap they're capable of showing down. I add that info to any other notes/stats I have, and either shove/fold. Calling a 3bet is tough with JJ and TT. It basically forces you in to set value only, and you have to fold to most cbets. If he's got unpaired cards in his range, you're typically better off 4betting. Again, with a good read, calling a 3bet is fine, especially if he likes "3betting light." The right play depends very heavily on his range. Against different opponents, any of the three options (fold, call, raise) can be best, depending on various factors (3 bet bet size, limpers/callers, and effective stacks come to mind).

Around 25nl (maybe 50nl), the regs start calling 3bets/4bets with AA and KK, and shoving w/ AK. Doesn't happen much at 10nl. Just be aware that 3bet/4bet pots will change as you move up. The great thing about 10nl is that they play them really badly, so you wanna find the right villains and play big pot poker with them.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

FriskyPirate

01-12-2009, 04:43 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2008

Location: Palm Springs

Posts: 92

Thank you both for the great advice and links...bookmarking and reading them now.

Robb you made an interesting point that 25nl and 50nl regs stack off with AK...I am never sure what to do with AK pre-flop in this situation...is it a reasonable play to stack-off with it against most weak players? It seems like it would be a 50 50 coin flip and cause a lot of variance...or does the added few percents of fold equity make it a +ev play?

01-12-2009, 05:12 PM

#5 (permalink)

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stacking off with AK is situational vs. fish
it depends on what they're stacking off with

if the fish only 3b QQ+ you shouldn't 4b AK obviously
but if you've seen the fish play AQ for stacks, it's fine to stack off because you're flipping most of the time, but the one time you get AQ vs. AK you're a huge favorite

Robb

01-12-2009, 05:51 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,072

AK vs ____ has ____ equity...

AA : 8%
KK : 31%
QQ/JJ/TT : 44%
AQ : 74%

AK is a great hand to 3bet with, and an OK hand to 4bet/5bet shove PROVIDED villain ain't a total nit. He's gotta be willing to stack off with something wider than QQ+, like IOPQ said. At 10nl, I was (am) often willing to stack off with it. 10nl is great -- not too expensive, so some dudes will stack off with KQ, 44 or sc's. Make notes on them!!

Obviously, FE plus 40ish preflop card equity make AK less vulnerable than a lot of hands when YOU are the person shoving all-in. I'm a lot happier shoving all-in with AK than I am calling off someone's else all-in. I need a decent read on the shover before I fist-pump snap call and all-in w/ AK. But I will shove AK against a lot of unknowns, especially short stacked ones.

Even if villain's 3bet range is TT+ and AK, we can often shove profitably. We have 41% equity against that range. The combos are as follows:

AA: 3
KK: 3
AK: 9
QQ: 6
JJ: 6
TT: 6

Total: 33

The 6 KK+ combos he's never folding, obv. But what if he's short stacked and there's only 40bb's left in his stack after 3betting? We'll almost certainly be priced in for a 4-bet shove. If he folds any of the hands QQ or worse, we profit immediately, and if he calls down with them all, we'll win our 2+ hands out of 5 in the long run.

3betting is all about ranges and math. I've described the typical scenario against an ABC TAGG 3betting range. Any time the range widens (like when I have a note that he'll 3bet with AJo or something similar), 4betting becomes a very attractive option. Any time he's only got a half stack or less, shoving becomes more attractive. Any time we're oop position postflop (like say we're SB), shoving becomes more attractive than playing AKo in a big pot both as the passive player preflop and oop.

Hope that helps.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

bigspenda73

01-12-2009, 08:24 PM

#7 (permalink)

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What have you seen your opponent's 3bet here?

daven

01-13-2009, 08:35 AM

#8 (permalink)

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at < 100n and without reads, assume villain's 3-bet range is QQ+ and play accordingly - i.e. fold or call for set odds.

at 10nl your biggest leak isn't 3- or 4-betting. You could only 3-bet KK/AA and fold except for QQ+ and you can still win at a very decent rate

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

Robb

01-13-2009, 09:49 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

This is important to note. I launched to answering your question. Daven just simplified everything right there. You CAN win lots without ever 4betting anything other than KK+, especially at 10nl. Play that default and only widen your range against villains you have SEEN 3bet with 88 or ATs or go open shove 44. When you see that (hopefully in a hand you're not involved in), note it, then profit later.

I realized when I read Daven's post that I learned 3betting and 4betting by doing it with premium hands. After you get used to how it goes when you have a big hand, you can widen your range gradually. But that took like 100k hands for me. So maybe Daven's "play it safe" idea is better right now.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

hangchiong

01-13-2009, 11:18 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 359

went down to play 10Nl for a while due to my big variance in 25NL

IMO,im sure my opinions has been said,but ill just add my own sentence.

Most of the time,villain's 3 betting range would be QQ+.Looking at a stat of 50 hands or so,we could roughly guess what his 3betting range are
I.e 7/4 would most likely have KK/AA
12/8 would most likely have QQ+,AK
30/20 would most likely (i have trouble playing with them)
45/25 would most likely have AX,broadways,top 15% IMO

When i get 3bet at 25NL or 10NL,i usually fold my JJ or sometimes QQ (depends on opponents),although we have odds to call for a set,7 out of 8 times we dont,which will leave us clueless on the flop when we dont.If the flop is all unders,we might have the problem of folding which our 100BB might be gone.

I hope what im saying is right

daven

01-14-2009, 12:03 AM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

Quote:

Originally Posted by hangchiong

I.e 7/4 would most likely have KK/AA
12/8 would most likely have QQ+,AK
30/20 would most likely (i have trouble playing with them)
45/25 would most likely have AX,broadways,top 15% IMO

I hope what im saying is right

wrong.

using VPIP-PFR-3-bet % notation.

I see a bunch of 7-4-5 players
12-8-0.9 players
30-20-0 players.

your approach is dangerous and ill-founded.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

bjsaust

01-14-2009, 01:51 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Not sure if someone else mentioned it, or it was covered in the links, but you were 3-bet here, not 4-bet.

Just playing to improve.

hangchiong

01-20-2009, 03:49 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2008

Posts: 359

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by hangchiong

wrong.

using VPIP-PFR-3-bet % notation.

I see a bunch of 7-4-5 players
12-8-0.9 players
30-20-0 players.

your approach is dangerous and ill-founded.

thanks for proving me wrong daven.i need some advice on it because i think im relying on stats too much at the moment which is awful when its only 50-100 hands or so.

where do we go from here?

kmind

01-20-2009, 04:03 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: Not Giving In

Posts: 4,240

Vs. 16/11's at these stakes I'd fold or call if I had set odds. I haven't read any of the thread but basically I think he has QQ+ and rarely AK. Yes more combos of it but from when I played at 25NL people were hesitant to 3bet AK and when someone is running 16/11 I can only ASSUME he's 3betting strictly for value and value = QQ+.

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