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10NL:Failed bluff following mono flop, plz critique my play

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flyingtriangle

04-23-2009, 06:39 AM Post subject: 10NL:Failed bluff following mono flop, plz critique my play

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 26

So I know it's customary not to post results along with hand histories, but here I'd like to get some feedback on a failed bluff attempt I made earlier tonight. I'd like to explain my thought process on each step, so I'll need to post the entire hand.

Villain has only been at the table about 20 hands. No real reads, but he seems like a tight, straightforward player.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($3.65)
Hero (UTG+1) ($21.25)
Villain (MP1) ($8.15)
MP2 ($13.10)
MP3 ($14.35)
CO ($10.05)
Button ($12)
SB ($10.55)
BB ($2)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q

, A

1 fold, Hero bets $0.30, Villain calls $0.30, 4 folds, SB calls $0.25, 1 fold

Preflop, I just made my standard 3xBB raise.

Flop: ($1) 2

, 5

, 6

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Villain bets $0.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.80

The near pot-size bet led me to the conclusion that Villain had not made a flush, but probably had one good club in his hand, or maybe a pair. I decided I would try to represent a flush by calling and betting to take the pot away on the turn if a non-club card came out.

Turn: ($2.60) 10

(2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, Villain calls $1.25

Sure enough, no club. Since Villian is unlikely to have a flush in my estimation, and since his bet was called on the flop, I'm thinking he has to be worried that I have the flush, so I lead out with what should appear to him to be a bet for value. Here, I was hoping to reinforce the notion that I had made a flush on the flop.

River: ($5.10) 5

(2 players)
Hero bets $2.80, Villain calls $2.80

When he called my bet on the turn, I figured Villain probably had one big club, i.e. the king or ace, and had called hoping for the 4th club to come on the river. Since it didn't, I decided I would bet out a little over half the pot. Again, I picked this amount to try to disguise my bluff, as if I had made the flush on the flop and believed my hand to be best, I would probably bet about this amount in hopes of getting a call.

Total pot: $10.70 | Rake: $0.50

Results:
Hero had Q

, A

(one pair, fives).
Villain had 4

, 4

(two pair, fives and fours).
Outcome: Villain won $10.20

I was shocked when he turned over his hand. To the extent that I had put him on a weak hand, my read was correct, but he was even weaker than I had expected. Yet, somehow, he still called me down. This leads me to conclude I must have screwed this play up pretty badly.

I welcome any feedback on how I could have played this hand more effectively.

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Lucothefish

04-23-2009, 08:39 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Lucothefish will become famous soon enough

EDIT: Actually, no I won't comment on the results and I think your post would be better without them.

Flatting every street here = on a draw like nearly all the time, and busted draws fold to 1/2 pb on the river quite a lot. I think if you wanted to represent the flush you should have bet a bit bigger on the turn though.

<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?

Stacks

04-23-2009, 10:19 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 2,605

He has a pair. Fold. Your beat.

04-23-2009, 02:20 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Is it me, or is like every post-flop street somehow misplayed?

Lucothefish

04-23-2009, 03:02 PM

#5 (permalink)

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well the line doesn't say "I can has flush".

If I actually had a flush here, I'd 1/2 pot the flop (or c/r against more aggressive villains), 2/3 the turn and jammmmm the river. The line taken in the OP does not say "I'm trying to get all your chips in" to me.

<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?

connectthesuitors

04-23-2009, 03:30 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2009

Location: Scotland

Posts: 125

I think the fact that he called your half pot turn bet indicates that he is likely to flat you on the river with a similar sized bet (especially when the river isn't a scare card at all for him). On the river you bet around half the pot with air meaning you must have thought there was about a 50% chance he was going to fold? Because your not really beating anything here. I just don't think 10NL is that profitable a level to be bluffing at all as there are so many stations and as you said you didn't have any reads on Villain so you should have slowed down at least by the river as you just threw 28BB's away there.

Stacks

04-23-2009, 04:10 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I keep thinking he has 44.

sil693

04-23-2009, 04:36 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: Birmingham, UK

Posts: 609

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

I keep thinking he has 44.

and therefore we fold. ldo. as he has 44 here and isn't going to fold it.

Pelion

04-23-2009, 05:37 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Its generally a bad idea to try to represent a hand that you are very unlikely to have (i.e. very few card combinations will make the hand). Your line also doesnt particularly look like a made flush. Check/ calling the flop and half potting the turn doesnt look like youre trying to get any real value from your hand. The size of your turn bet after a flop check/call looks far more like a blocking bet than a monster.

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

flyingtriangle

04-23-2009, 06:30 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Is it me, or is like every post-flop street somehow misplayed?

I'm sure you're right, but could you elaborate?

Keith

04-23-2009, 06:33 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 1,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

I keep thinking he has 44.

diamonds and clubs?

Kijjo

04-23-2009, 07:05 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

You've gotten a lot of comments. I am currently playing 10NL bro, and here's my take.
#1 - they're right, there are alot of calling stations, so I don't try to run a bluff on someone unless I have enough hands on him to have a good idea he'll fold at least sometimes.
#2 - with a straightflush draw, I don't think his play is bad until the river - though if he doesn't think you made your flush, what's he going to give you credit for an overpair or AT or a set? You didn't ever make it prohibitively expensive for him to follow along, and unless you play crap cards, the odds are pretty slim that you've got him beat.
#3 - my plan, should I have decided this was a good player to bluff, would have been check the flop (that's what I'd do if I nailed a flush), call his bet. check the turn, if he bets, re-raise 3X. if he checks behind pot the river. there are probably better ways to do it, but my approach is to imagine I had what I wish I had, then play it like I'm holding it, and that's probably the way I play it more than 1/2 the time.

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Lucothefish

04-24-2009, 08:16 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Stacks, ffs put the villain on a range, not a hand. You'll improve once you learn to do it.

<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?

Stacks

04-24-2009, 08:23 AM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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I'm just tired of seeing results in 90% of the hand histories. As if we haven't made it clear yet. I'm pretty much made a pact with myself to not respond with serious advice in any thread that has the results.

Lucothefish

04-24-2009, 08:45 AM

#15 (permalink)

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I think the one that gets ignored even more than "don't post results" is "post your reads on villain and your own table image"...

<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?

oskar

04-24-2009, 08:54 AM

#16 (permalink)

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c/f flop, c/f turn, c/f river

3 to the flop @ lol-NL and low connected flop... don't bluff... won't work.

04-24-2009, 09:34 AM

#17 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingtriangle

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Is it me, or is like every post-flop street somehow misplayed?

I'm sure you're right, but could you elaborate?

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

c/f flop, c/f turn, c/f river

3 to the flop @ lol-NL and low connected flop... don't bluff... won't work.

Lucothefish

04-24-2009, 09:41 AM

#18 (permalink)

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I still prefer b/f on monotone flops, especially with a tight read.

<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?

04-24-2009, 09:43 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

I still prefer b/f on monotone flops, especially with a tight read.

it's 3-way and the flop is also ALL SMALL CARDS
that means you're getting called by any PP on the flop

Lucothefish

04-24-2009, 10:09 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Food for thought there, I see your point about the pp's but the extra man in doesn't bother me.

<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?

04-24-2009, 01:07 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucothefish

Food for thought there, I see your point about the pp's but the extra man in doesn't bother me.

say one person folds 50%
then you can cbet 2/3 pot and make profit
if each of the two people fold 50%, both of them will fold only 25% of the time, and better 2/3 pot won't show a profit

Lucothefish

04-24-2009, 01:15 PM

#22 (permalink)

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...almost word for word from ToP.

<@d0zer> how will you learn if I don't berate you harshly?

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