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10NL : Confused with the Ladies

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Evilpopcorn

06-04-2009, 09:08 PM Post subject: 10NL : Confused with the Ladies

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

Villian Stats : (VP$IP/PFR [Street Aggression] 3-bet%)

24/16 [1 1 1] 6% over 353

Have no notes 3-bet pots with him.

My Thoughts And Questions

So i think its unlikey villian is 3-betting very wide here as i am opening MP and he doesnt have a big 3bet% anywayz. Cos of that i decide to flat. How owuld 4betting here be ? I ask as it makes the hands simpler to play as being OOP with QQ against a tight 3bet range and aggro opponent i am hating life just a little. of course 4betting to makes things simple probably isnt good reason enough

.

So on flop what is our line ? I dont donk bet much but would this be the right spot. Do we call jam? If we go c/r we are commited and need to call also right ? Check/fold makes me feel like girl..... and if were are set mining then i shouldnt have called preflop.

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players

BTN: $11.55
SB: $10.40
BB: $9.25
UTG: $12.35
Hero (MP): $10.60
CO: $11.05

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with Q

1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO raises to $1.30, 3 folds, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($2.75) 8

(2 players)
Hero?

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06-04-2009, 09:11 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

c/shove flop
if you're going to JUST CALL, then you should improve your flop shoving range by showing up with queens because most of the time you're dicking around with two hearts or like Q9 type of hand

preflop 4b/call is fine

Evilpopcorn

06-04-2009, 09:19 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

i should be calling OOP to a tigh 3bettor with Q9 type hands and some two hears hands that arent AK ?

So u saying 4bet/call here is best ?

06-04-2009, 09:22 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn

i should be calling OOP to a tigh 3bettor with Q9 type hands and some two hears hands that arent AK ?

Probably not with his bet sizing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn

So u saying 4bet/call here is best ?

yeah
he has 6% 3b
no matter which hands he does this with QQ is more than slightly profitable to 4b/call

you just don't want him to be 3bing you light with garbage like A2s and flop an ace when he would relinquish all of his equity (30%) after a 4b or even surprise you and shove it in as a bluff

Evilpopcorn

06-04-2009, 09:31 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

4bet size. 2.5x or bigger ? If he flats we getting it on flop with no A/K ?

Lets assume we could say his range is JJ AK+ for the 3bet in this pot. Then is QQ still slightly profitable ?

Really dont see this villian getting tricksy with some sort of suited connector or suited or small PP.

I have known to be mostly wrong tho lol

06-04-2009, 10:18 PM

#6 (permalink)

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he has 6% 3b
JJ+, AK is 3%

so he folds half of the time
instant profit because we're flipping against his value range

we get 94.6BB back when we shove as a 4b
we put in 97BB
so we lose 2.4BB when called
we win 13BB when he folds (50% of he time)

so 4bing all in with QQ is +10.6BB every time we do it
4b/calling is the same, except who makes the shove is different

4bing small has the advantage that he can decide to 5b bluff in which case we pick up equity
given his bet sizing IP I'm just going to stick it in because you should never make it 32BB with the intention of folding to a shove
although it's not like you have anything to lose making it 32BB

if he flats your 4b the pot is 64BB, you have 68BB left
his range is like AQ/AJs/KQs/other crap and slowplayed KK+

Robb

06-04-2009, 10:32 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,072

Robb is an unknown quantity at this point

I would 4bet preflop about $2 (around 2.5x or a bit less). I prefer the 4bet oop and the flat call ip w/ QQ, for playability purposes.

JJ+/AK is only 5% of hands, so his 3bet range has to be bit wider, probably some Axs make up the difference. Against that range, you're extremely profitable to 4bet/call a shove.

Either way, you've gotta jam the flop (like IOPQ says), since this is like a dream flop for your hand in a 3bet/4bet pot.

Generally, getting more chips in sooner oop will simplify life and be more +EV over the long term.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

sarbox68

06-04-2009, 11:50 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

he has 6% 3b
JJ+, AK is 3%

And that's a total 3b% stat. Don't leave that out of your thinking. If he's remotely positionally aware, he could be 3betting like 1-2% from UTG and maybe as wide as 10% from the CO or Bu. That puts his 3bet range even wider in this situation. Plus getting all in in decent position against his range negates his positional advantage. There's quite a few flop boards that are not going to be fun to play QQ OOP vs a PF 3bettor.

bjsaust

06-04-2009, 11:53 PM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

I'll guarantee he's 3-betting less than 1% from UTG

Just playing to improve.

Robb

06-04-2009, 11:55 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 3,072

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'll guarantee he's 3-betting less than 1% from UTG

dammit, you beat me to it :P

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

sarbox68

06-04-2009, 11:57 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'll guarantee he's 3-betting less than 1% from UTG

dammit, you beat me to it :P

.... but all those pretty sooted cards.......

bjsaust

06-04-2009, 11:59 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2007

Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Think about it

Just playing to improve.

sarbox68

06-05-2009, 12:02 AM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

... duly noted.... (I'm in an airport 3 Stella's deep for f-k sake... gimme a break on your "oohhh... I can do maths in my heads with, like, percentages and card combinations...."

)

hopefully OP will get my point....

bjsaust

06-05-2009, 12:15 AM

#14 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Location: Ballarat, Australia

Posts: 5,842

Lol, one stella too many. Who could possibly have raised for an UTG to 3bet?

Just playing to improve.

sarbox68

06-05-2009, 12:17 AM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

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Durr

...because he has the aggressive.....

... oh, wait, wat?

Robb

06-05-2009, 01:02 AM

#16 (permalink)

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drunk lulz

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

Evilpopcorn

06-05-2009, 06:11 AM

#17 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

My strategy at 10NL was to never 4bet except when i had AA/KK and it was vs a drooler.

When i saw the 6% 3bet i actually thought in this spot that he would be 3betting even tighter as i opened from MP. He didnt look aggro enough to me to be getting out of line to my MP raise. I mean everyone knows you steal from BTN and CO at 10NL but i get the feeling i get a lot more respect from MP. 3bet % per position would be great, but probably would need a giant sample!

So if i am 4bet shoving QQ in this spot do i need to balance this with other hands. I mean if i am only 4bet shoving QQ in this spot does this make me very exploitable? This is 10NL tho so shouldnt be too worried about balance i suspect, but just out of interest and furthering my poker thinking i would like to know.

06-05-2009, 07:23 AM

#18 (permalink)

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he should be probably 3bing light 50% MP vs. CO, and 25% UTG vs. MP (or not at all, but this is a mistake, you should always have some bluffs in these common situations) and maybe like 75% CO vs. BU

also, in terms of balance if he folds everything but AK,QQ+ to a 4b, then you can 4b bluff him which balances out your 4bing range

Evilpopcorn

06-05-2009, 07:47 AM

#19 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2008

Posts: 232

Do you think this holds true at 10NL where 3/4 bets are normally very tight ranges and hardly ever bluffs.

I mean i know if i have an aggressive player directly on my right i am 3betting him with quite a range when i am on BTN/CO. I dont think this is the normaly stlyle of 10NL regs even. Regs know about raising cards in position, but dont think many start 3betting in position with a wide range.

Lets say now the 3bettor in the hand had like a 3bet of 9-10% then would we take the exact same line ? I would think that we then have more FE that would increase the +EV of the 4bet shove ?

Robb

06-05-2009, 09:26 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,072

The regs at 10nl are incapable of 3betting, but this guy is abnormal w/ his 6% 3bet, and 350 hands is a pretty decent sample. Against someone who 3bets this much, QQ is golden. Seriously, use pokerstove and create several different ranges of 6%, and compare their equity vs. QQ. You'll find that regardless of whether his 6% is pp's mainly or has lots of Axs, you've got playable equity.

To connect w/ IOPQ's last post, let's assume that he's folding 50% of the time to your 4bet and continuing 50%. Ditch the "worst" half of those ranges on poker stove and look at your equity. Again, you'll find that against any 3% range you construct, you're OK.

Do it. I promise it will be interesting.

My Operation and FTR Rethread: Stations are *sob* so hard to play against

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