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Gobbatino
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06-18-2009, 07:15 PM
Post subject: 10NL: Common spot with AK OOP
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 341
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Villain is 50/24/3.4 over 70ish hands. There are so many that play like this at my site. Note on him says he's called down all streets with middle pair and once with a draw he then bluffed with on the river. I doubt he'll fold to a c-bet, but almost 100% he'll bet if I check. What do I do in this spot as played? Check folding this is where a lot of my losses are about, happens so much. And should I not be 3-betting him knowing he calls just about anything?
Absolute/UB Cereus No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Absolute/UB Cereus Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($3.83)
Hero (SB) ($11.33)
BB ($7.52)
UTG ($11.84)
MP ($4.40)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A , K
UTG bets $0.35, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.30, 1 fold, UTG raises to $4, Hero calls $2.70
Flop: ($8.10) 7, 6, 2 (2 players)
Hero ???
Total pot: $8.10 | Rake: $0.40
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Why would you call his 4bet OOP? Your obviously setting yourself up for this spot.
And if you know he calls just about anything to a 3bet, then you should obviously be 3betting him.. And shoving over his 4bet.
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Lunatic37
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
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I'm in this spot a lot too post flop with AK. So you're saying we shouldn't call a 3 bet pre flop with AK? Either 4Bet or fold? or Just fold? I would assume it would depend on villian. 4Bet and he pushes, then it's 99% AA or KK?
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Gobbatino
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 341
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I can see the call was pretty fail on my part OOP but wouldn't his 4 bet range be a PPs and AK? I figured I'd be behind most of his range there. So I guess I should have folded if I did think that...? Sorry to be so noob.
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I'm in this spot a lot too post flop with AK. So you're saying we shouldn't call a 3 bet pre flop with AK? Either 4Bet or fold? or Just fold? I would assume it would depend on villian. 4Bet and he pushes, then it's 99% AA or KK?
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That would be pretty much a shove though on our part though.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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If this is common you are just burning money. You have a shit ton of your stack in OOP and not knowing what to do. You should never be in this spot.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Lunatic37: First we 3bet and villain 4bet us, and we called his 4bet OOP. Which is exponentially different than calling a 3bet with AK. I would certainly be 3betting AK here given the shorthanded nature of this game, and the reads that OP provided stating that he didn't believe villain would fold hardly anything to his 3bet. Meaning we are WAY ahead of is continuing range, and there have loads of value by 3betting AK.
However, I wouldn't be looking to flat a 4bet here OOP for numerous reasons. (1) We aren't going to hit the flop all that often. What are we do when we whiff the flop? We will be check/folding very often, and that's a less than ideal spot I do believe. (2) Against a villain who is calling 3bets so often, I'm sure his 4betting range isn't strictly AA/KK, espeically shorthanded. And would expect hands like TT-QQ, AK, and even AQ to be in his 4betting range at least with some frequency.
AK is approx 50% against a range of TT+, AQ+, so given our pot equity if we get it in preflop, along with all the fold equity we will have, it's clearly a +EV spot to shove over his 4bet imo. Much more +EV than flatting his 4bet OOP and c/fing all flops we miss.
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Gobbatino
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 341
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kmind
If this is common you are just burning money. You have a shit ton of your stack in OOP and not knowing what to do. You should never be in this spot.
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Definitely. So shove or fold is the only line.
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Lunatic37: First we 3bet and villain 4bet us, and we called his 4bet OOP. Which is exponentially different than calling a 3bet with AK. I would certainly be 3betting AK here given the shorthanded nature of this game, and the reads that OP provided stating that he didn't believe villain would fold hardly anything to his 3bet. Meaning we are WAY ahead of is continuing range, and there have loads of value by 3betting AK.
However, I wouldn't be looking to flat a 4bet here OOP for numerous reasons. (1) We aren't going to hit the flop all that often. What are we do when we whiff the flop? We will be check/folding very often, and that's a less than ideal spot I do believe. (2) Against a villain who is calling 3bets so often, I'm sure his 4betting range isn't strictly AA/KK, espeically shorthanded. And would expect hands like TT-QQ, AK, and even AQ to be in his 4betting range at least with some frequency.
AK is approx 50% against a range of TT+, AQ+, so given our pot equity if we get it in preflop, along with all the fold equity we will have, it's clearly a +EV spot to shove over his 4bet imo. Much more +EV than flatting his 4bet OOP and c/fing all flops we miss.
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Awesome, thanks for breaking it down for me. Lesson learned.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Put all your money into the pot.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Right. You just have to use simple maths (that I am too lazy to do) to figure out if shoving is correct in this spot. He's loose so MOST LIKELY he has a wider than normal range that he'll call a shove with so I'd shove.
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Lunatic37
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
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Not sure but I think he's saying you either 4Bet or fold. That way you're putting the pressure back on him and representing AA/KK. If he shoves you can assume AA/KK. If he just calls probably JJ/QQ which you can play against on flop.
I'm asking more than telling here.
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Lunatic37
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
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sorry I typed my above post before all these responses, and had it on in background.
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Gobbatino
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 341
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lunatic37
Not sure but I think he's saying you either 4Bet or fold. That way you're putting the pressure back on him and representing AA/KK. If he shoves you can assume AA/KK. If he just calls probably JJ/QQ which you can play against on flop.
I'm asking more than telling here.
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From what I understand it's either a 5bet shove or fold. Against this particular villain 5bet shove would be better due to his wider range and donky stats. So in no scenario are we playing a flop.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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Right. It's all about his ranges. AK does well vs. most ranges and in this case he should have a wider shove calling range than normal which is even better.
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Lunatic37
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4
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Gotcha, thanks.
Sorry to hijack his thread with postions I've been in, I can just relate to him about losing money with AK. By far it's my hand I've lost the most money with AKo/AKs. So I know that I haven't been playing it right. So just to set up a few scenarios:
AK EP - standard raise, if we get 3Bet, Push/Fold depending on villian?
AK MP/LP - if there has been a 3Bet already, are Push/Fold here too? With two people still to act I would think this would be fold, since we don't have anything in pot.
AK MP/LP - do we 3Bet or are we Pushing already in this spot? I would think since we are in MP/LP we would 3Bet and see if he calls/4Bets. Is that right?
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Lunatic: the first bet is the big blind, a raise is the second bet, a 3b is someone reraising
here someone rereraised which is a 4b
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Gobbatino
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 341
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lunatic37
Sorry to hijack his thread
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Knock yourself out man. 
Going to take a shot at these, hopefully so I can get corrected if I'm wrong (and adding some questions myself :P). I think a lot of these have too many "depending on"s, even more so than you said.
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AK EP - standard raise, if we get 3Bet, Push/Fold depending on villian?
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Depending on villain, villain's position also (could still be out of the blinds in which case we have position and a call might not be terrible? SB/BB taggish 3bet range is probably AQs+, JJ+.).
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AK MP/LP - if there has been a 3Bet already, are Push/Fold here too? With two people still to act I would think this would be fold, since we don't have anything in pot.
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Very very villain dependent and also the position from which the original bettor raised and the position of the 3bettor, what about a 4bet squeeze? Is there any room for a cold call here? I'd find it very hard to fold, especially if you're sooted.
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AK MP/LP - do we 3Bet or are we Pushing already in this spot? I would think since we are in MP/LP we would 3Bet and see if he calls/4Bets. Is that right?
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If there's no 3bet before us we definitely want to 3bet.
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