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Evilpopcorn
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05-12-2009, 07:43 PM
Post subject: 10NL : Can i check this flop behind ?
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Less than 50 hands on both villians so no reads.
Now often in hu pots on very dry boards in position i have a very stroing tendacy to check a weak top pair for pot control and to extrtact some value from weaker hadns on turn with flop check.
My question is can i do this in multi way pots ? If so is this a spot ?
Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
BTN: $16.30
SB: $3.50
BB: $45.60
UTG: $14.05
Hero (MP): $11.55
CO: $10.00
Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with Q T
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, SB calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20
Flop: ($0.90) Q 7 3 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks
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notoriousnf
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 24
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Bet the flop. You want hands that have a chance of catching up (like any ace or king in the hole) to fold now while you have the lead. If you bet the flop and are check raised to a decent amount you can get away from top pair weaker kicker. But at least bet to find out where you're at.
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by notoriousnf
Bet the flop. You want hands that have a chance of catching up (like any ace or king in the hole) to fold now while you have the lead. If you bet the flop and are check raised to a decent amount you can get away from top pair weaker kicker. But at least bet to find out where you're at.
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Woukld you take this line HU with this flop texture also ?
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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if youre trying to pot control, you can always cbet flop and check behind turn. not only does this control the pot but it looks like you just missed the flop, cbet, and shut down after getting called
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
if youre trying to pot control, you can always cbet flop and check behind turn. not only does this control the pot but it looks like you just missed the flop, cbet, and shut down after getting called
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Wouldnt checking flop induce bets from bluffs and worse hands, as well as villian taking check/call lines with worse made hands (flop check widens check/calling range) and also me setting the price for showdown being in position.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
if youre trying to pot control, you can always cbet flop and check behind turn. not only does this control the pot but it looks like you just missed the flop, cbet, and shut down after getting called
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Wouldnt checking flop induce bets from bluffs and worse hands, as well as villian taking check/call lines with worse made hands (flop check widens check/calling range) and also me setting the price for showdown being in position. |
AFchung's advice is usually what i do. we don't really want to be inducing too much bluffing on the turn with this sort of holding because villain betting makes TPMK hands tough to play. if we go bet/check/eval then it seems like WE have the initiative throughout most the hand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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You guys taking same line in a hu on such a dry board ?
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Evilpopcorn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by AFchung
if youre trying to pot control, you can always cbet flop and check behind turn. not only does this control the pot but it looks like you just missed the flop, cbet, and shut down after getting called
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Wouldnt checking flop induce bets from bluffs and worse hands, as well as villian taking check/call lines with worse made hands (flop check widens check/calling range) and also me setting the price for showdown being in position. |
checking turn induces bluffs and keeps in worse hands as well
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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I don't like the check. First, you are likely ahead and you want to build the pot at least somewhat with your top pair and decent kicker so that you collect a nice payoff. Second, it's important to remember that while we all think about flush and straight draws, drawing to 2 pair or trips is a possible draw that is out there as well. You need to price out those draws. Third, while you shouldn't bet solely for information, there is an informational value to this bet as if someone is check-raising you, that's better to know now rather than to have the person lead out on the turn and you can't figure out whether you are ahead or behind.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I'd check more than I bet
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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This is a pretty good spot for a delayed cbet. Very few cards that can improve our opponents whatever they have.
I would base it on reads. If at least one of these guys hates folding I'd go ahead and bet for value, but without a juicy CS in the hand I dont mind checking.
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Just playing to improve.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I'd check more than I bet
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I doubt checking or betting is going to be all that different in EV tbh. However, I would def be more inclined to bet this in a HU pot, as I would expect villain to pill hands like 7x, 88-TT some % of the time, and while that could still happen, it will have with less frequency in a 3way pot (as our range needs to be stronger for betting, as does theirs for calling). I would be more inclined if they are fish to bet, as we can expect to get looked up by worse more often. But overall, a check is fine, as is betting imo.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i dont see why we arent betting. dont pp's call all day here thinking we are fos? and, doesnt an A or K just about kill our hand if it falls? why are we afraid of betting for value here, and if we take it down, we take it down? not every pot cannot be a big one.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Well there are a few considerations:
1. How often people are just going to call, check turn and when I check the turn back randomly decide to bluff on the river. I see donks take this line with random crap.
2. How often someone is going to c/r as a bluff. This is more likely going to be the BB because once the SB folds he feels safer about his prospects.
3. How happy are we to play for stacks with the SB. If he's a total retard, we might be fist-pump shoving river. Of course this could also apply to the BB, but it's been a while since I've seen people who play so bad that you'd want to do that with a full stack. Shortstackers, however...
If those two are unknown I would go for bet flop, check blank turn, call or b/f river. Small bet sizes.
This is because a cbet is something that's expected and well-known. People peel the flop more than they peel the turn if we delayed cbet.
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
Well there are a few considerations:
1. How often people are just going to call, check turn and when I check the turn back randomly decide to bluff on the river. I see donks take this line with random crap.
2. How often someone is going to c/r as a bluff. This is more likely going to be the BB because once the SB folds he feels safer about his prospects.
3. How happy are we to play for stacks with the SB. If he's a total retard, we might be fist-pump shoving river. Of course this could also apply to the BB, but it's been a while since I've seen people who play so bad that you'd want to do that with a full stack. Shortstackers, however...
If those two are unknown I would go for bet flop, check blank turn, call or b/f river. Small bet sizes.
This is because a cbet is something that's expected and well-known. People peel the flop more than they peel the turn if we delayed cbet.
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So u saying that my check on flop that widens their turn calling ranges does not out weigh the flop c-bet that does not get terribly a lot of respect then checking the turn going for a check/call river line to be a bluff catcher a lot of the time.
Also how would you adjust if it was a hu pot ?
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well I think a hand like 99 would call the flop, but if the turn is a jack it devalues 99 a lot since we could decide to bet a jack on the turn if checked to on the flop and turn
now we have to weigh pps that want to peel a flop vs. hands like Jx that fold the flop but would improve on the turn to second best
there are just not many hands that would improve to second best and want to call the turn other than dominated pairs like T7
there are a lot more hands that have 4-5 outs that we'd rather either fold or call a 1/2 pot bet than draw for free
in a hu pot I would check more than bet because:
we're giving a free card to one person and not two
we're more likely to get a fold from one person than from two
from my db my cbets get called twice as often when it's 3 way than HU
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