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10nl 6max: Hands I messed up bad

  
 
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clvacva
Old 12-30-2009, 07:13 AM     Post subject: 10nl 6max: Hands I messed up bad #1 (permalink)  
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clvacva
1stHAND
Villain was 80/18. Calling with k high and betting when check too type of player.
I raise AT cuz villain is gonna call with a lot worse.

Bet flop for value. When he c/r cuz his range is so wide I assume he is doing this with better aces, worse aces, spades,67,sets,2pairs even air.
So I call to keep his range wide and get it in on a safe turn.

Turn bricks he could have a 5 but meh. So i shove to get value/protect from spades,67 and ship ship if he had A9,A7

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($12)
UTG ($7.65)
MP ($16.65)
Hero (CO) ($10.35)
Button ($5.40)
SB ($7.15)

Preflop: Hero is CO with ,
UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.30) , , (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.80, 1 fold, UTG raises to $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

Turn: ($4.50) (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $8.35 (All-In), UTG calls $5.65 (All-In)

River: ($15.80) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $15.80 | Rake: $0.75

2ndHAND
UTG was a huge fish playing 69/2 calling station.
BB was a 22/13 had done nothing noteworthy

Flop Tx,Jx,straight draws,5x,pckt pairs are gonna call me.

Turn KJ,QJ,J9,KT,AT,9T,QT,99,KQ,98 are all calling one more street. I assume any hand like sets,2pairs would have raised me.

River: I did not know what to do. I did not want to c/f but it's probably the best play since he is not gonna value bet KJ,AT,KT on the river he might not even value bet a hand like T9/89 so it's probably best to try to get to showdown.
However I did not like the idea of c/f at the moment and I felt that b/f like 2 dollars was a bitch of a move so I decided to shove hoping I ran into KJ,AT,KT because people can't fold

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($10.65)
Hero (SB) ($11.60)
BB ($10)
UTG ($8.85)
MP ($5.85)
CO ($12.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with ,
UTG calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.30, UTG calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.20) , , (3 players)
Hero bets $0.90, BB calls $0.90, 1 fold

Turn: ($3) (2 players)
Hero bets $2.20, BB calls $2.20

River: ($7.40) (2 players)
Hero bets $8.10 (All-In), BB calls $6.50 (All-In)

Total pot: $20.40 | Rake: $1

3rd HAND
58/15 fish
So I raise pre for value
Flop cbet is probably marginal. I could easily have the best hand. But I don't want to c/c (opponent was betting when checked too) and having to hope a turn brings a A/Q. So I decided to bet maybe get him off AK(doubt it) or 22,33,44.
Any ways he shoves and I call because I have 2overcards and he could be shoving with worse air than me.
Board: 7d 8d 7s

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.789% 46.99% 04.80% 78147 7989.00 { AdQc }
Hand 1: 48.211% 43.41% 04.80% 72195 7989.00 { 22+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo }

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($28.55)
Button ($5.40)
Hero (SB) ($31.75)
BB ($10.10)
UTG ($10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with ,
2 folds, Button bets $0.20, Hero raises to $0.80, 1 fold, Button calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.70) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $0.80, Button raises to $4.60 (All-In), Hero calls $3.80

Turn: ($10.90) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.90) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.90 | Rake: $0.50
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clvacva
Old 12-30-2009, 07:18 AM #2 (permalink)  
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One problem with 1st hand is villain was donking more than c/r so this could be taken as sign of strength than a semi-bluff.
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spoonitnow
Old 12-30-2009, 07:25 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: Put him on a turn calling range and then I'll offer more detailed comments. List the actual hands.

Hand 2: Do the same thing here on the river.

Hand 3: Put him on a more realistic flop shoving range and refer to this: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...in-t87954.html If that was anywhere close to his real shoving range then you wouldn't be saying your c-bet was marginal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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clvacva
Old 12-30-2009, 07:46 AM #4 (permalink)  
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clvacva
Hand 1
Calling A2+Including AsXs,56,65,55,88,KsXs,QsXs,JsXs,TsXs,67

Hand 2:
Calling KJ,AT,KT,QJ,J9,9T,QT,99,KQ,98,slow payed sets

Hand3:
need 53%

Board: 7d 8d 7s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.758% 32.38% 06.38% 32379 6375.50 { AdQc }
Hand 1: 61.242% 54.87% 06.38% 54860 6375.50 { QQ-66, AJs+, A8s-A7s, KdQd, KdJd, K8s, QdJd, Q8s, JdTd, J8s, Td9d, T8s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo+, KQo }

Fold
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spoonitnow
Old 12-30-2009, 02:17 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 In hands 1 & 2 if you are ahead of his calling range (ie, you have more than 50% equity) then your shoves are easily +EV.

In hand 3 you need to go back to that link and try again. The % equity you need to call is waaaay off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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spoonitnow
Old 12-30-2009, 03:47 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 Btw if you still can't get the thing in part 3 come into IRC (click my sig for directions) and I'll help you out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Juice®
Old 12-30-2009, 04:44 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: I don't think shoving 83bb into a 45bb pot, with TPWK on a paired board is the smartest thing to do. Better hands are calling way too often.

Hand 2: Yes, you could have the best hand, but shoving your stack in on the river seems more like a bluff than a thin value bet. A ton of hands have you crushed and I don't see him calling you without showing something better than top pair.

Hand 3: Hero call much? I doubt you have the equity to call here even against such a wide range.
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surviva316
Old 12-30-2009, 05:12 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: iso to .50 preflop, then bet 1.50 into 1.60 so that you can shove the turn for like 2/3 PSB. as played, bet flop at least $1. as played, i like it.

Hand 2: iso to .50-.60 PF. as played, i'm ok with either blocking bet/folding river or c/eval (folding to almost any show of strength). i like c/f the most.

Hand 3: spoon's got this one covered.
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spoonitnow
Old 12-30-2009, 06:15 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice®
Hand 1: I don't think shoving 83bb into a 45bb pot, with TPWK on a paired board is the smartest thing to do. Better hands are calling way too often.

Hand 2: Yes, you could have the best hand, but shoving your stack in on the river seems more like a bluff than a thin value bet. A ton of hands have you crushed and I don't see him calling you without showing something better than top pair.

Hand 3: Hero call much? I doubt you have the equity to call here even against such a wide range.
Hand 1 you have the bet-sizing wrong. Hand 2 you need to put your opponent on a calling range to back up your claim. Hand 3 you need to figure out how much equity he needs to call to back up your claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
 
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Juice®
Old 12-30-2009, 07:30 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Come on dude, don't make me work.

After all, "math is idiotic". - Barry Greenstein, circa 2008
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clvacva
Old 12-30-2009, 07:35 PM #11 (permalink)  
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clvacva
Ok one more time

Pot is gonna be 10.90 and I have to call 3.80

3.80/10.90 = 34%
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clvacva
Old 12-30-2009, 08:04 PM #12 (permalink)  
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clvacva
Hand 1 I do get 53% equity so yay.
Hand 2 I get 30% so bad shove.
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Wikkiwikki
Old 12-30-2009, 08:41 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Small hand small pot - big hand big pot. TPTK isnt a big hand so you need to control the pot size and keep it small above all other concerns.

When I have a one pair hand I usually decide I have to skip a street to keep the pot small, now that can be the flop or the turn but if I'm betting both the pot is getting too big for the strength of my hand.

For example in hand 1. you could have easily checked behind on the turn keeping the pot small and even if he had the trips/flush you would only be calling a suck bet on the river, not losing your whole stack.

Letting a card come off to beat you in a small pot isn't a big mistake, but stacking off is.
Ship it holla!
 
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Extremophile
Old 12-30-2009, 08:49 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice®
Come on dude, don't make me work.

After all, "math is idiotic". - Barry Greenstein, circa 2008
and you believe him lol
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Juice®
Old 12-30-2009, 09:51 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Umm no. Remove your pocket protectors and your geek glasses so you can sense the sarcasm in my post. Wow
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clvacva
Old 12-30-2009, 10:01 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Wikkiwikki-
I agree with you and I would play it like that vs a taggy opponent who's range is stronger.
But the opponent in the hand is a 80/20 fish that has a lot worse in his range and I can go for +3streets of value with TPGK since he will have so much worse.
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Wikkiwikki
Old 12-31-2009, 01:06 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Yeah I'm not at the table, but just thought it was good to mention pot sizing. I think a lot of people don't pay as much attention to it as they should.
Ship it holla!
 
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surviva316
Old 12-31-2009, 09:07 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 if we have >50% equity against villain's continuing range, and he's unlikely to bluff over our value bet, it really isn't super relevant whether we have top set or bottom pair. there are people who's gameplay that i respect who say that it isn't a bad exercise to as of the flop decide on your hand strength and how big of a pot you're comfortable getting in vs a villain and more or less aiming for that pot size. However, i suspect this has much more to do with teaching oneself pot discipline and recognizing when villain is placing more value in their hand than they'd expect
to do with too many hands, than it has to do with actually believing from a theoretical standpoint that "pot controlling the turn" with a hand that dominates their turn calling range is an awesome play. that was a long and convoluted sentence, but the point is your application of pot control doesn't is pretty discordant with basic poker logic.

another point, poker is all about capitalizing on opponent's mistakes, and since even the best 10nl regs are laughably mistake-prone, we should be giving people the opportunity to make as many mistakes as possible. for example, in hand 2 it would prolly be bad for villain to expect too many tagg-ish looking unknowns at 10nl will be double barrelling this board an extreme amount of times as a bluff, and since we iso'ed from the SB, our range is prolly strong, so hands like KJ SHOULD be unhappy about this spot. however, we can't at all assume that some random 10nl fucktard will recognize this and even if he does, he still isn't likely to make the perfect decisions in this tough of a spot a large percentage of the time. this on top of the fact that he's not folding QJ, T9, 98, etc and so on and so forth makes betting the path that maximizes OUR expectation of value and HIS expectation of making a mistake.

long and likely confusing post, but i feel that many people misunderstand application of pot control
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