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Sasquach991
Old 01-13-2009, 06:18 AM     Post subject: 10NL-3 hands #1 (permalink)  
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I'm starting to have some trouble at 10NL.
Hand 1
45/20
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($8.80)
Hero (UTG) ($10)
MP ($21.30)
CO ($22.95)
Button ($6.55)
SB ($11.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 9, 7, 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, CO calls $1.50

Turn: ($3.95) 6 (2 players)
Hero ???

Hand 2
Villian was 67/35/5

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($10)
BB ($12.25)
UTG ($24.15)
MP ($10.65)
Hero (CO) ($9.85)
Button ($13.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J
UTG raises to $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.90, 3 folds, UTG raises to $10.60, Hero ???

Hand 3
Not sure what to do here on the river. I had nut flush draw and straight draw.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($8.40)
UTG ($12.40)
MP ($23.90)
CO ($11.35)
Hero (Button) ($10)
SB ($13.95)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2, A
1 fold, MP raises to $0.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 10, 5, K (2 players)
MP bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.55) 4 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.55) 8 (2 players)
MP bets $1.30, Hero ???
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Illfavor
Old 01-13-2009, 06:46 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 1- Do we b/f turn here?
2-Meh. This is really close and I don't have a thoughtout answer.
3-What about a flop raise? This seems like a weak cbet and our hand is most valuable then. I would fold on the river, as you only beat a bluff from QJ.
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DA9ers
Old 01-13-2009, 06:59 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand #1. You have to bet the turn. If you check, your opponent will bet and you will probably have enough sense to fold. So put a probe bet in of about $1.50 and see what he does. if he calls, I think you probably check call the river if a reasonable card comes.

Hand #2 There's no right answer. He's a maniac. Yet shoves preflop from these players aren't usually with hands that will have u dominated. So we can probably rule out QQ+. AQ+, KQ you are flipping. A2-A10 you're 70/30. Underpair you're 80/20. You have a lot of equity in this pot and if you've seen him make plays like this recently, you probably have good reason to look him up. Folding isn't a bad play here either. you only have .30 invested.

Hand#3 I don't really see what the problem is here. you don't beat anything and he bet pot. He's probably not folding a k or 10 so I think this is an easy fold. your check behind on the turn was a good check because it got you a free river card, yet it pretty much turned your hand face up. You either have a flush draw or QJ. since you didn't hit your draw, no need to lose any more money.
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xptboy
Old 01-13-2009, 09:02 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: I bet and fold to ANY raise, even a minraise, then prolly c/f then river

Hand 2: I'd like to know his 3bet stats and if he's done this before, how many hands have you played with him btw? If he's played more than 50 hands I'd be inclined to call whilst if he's played less than 50 hands I'd be inclined to fold (only because before 50 hands are played anybody's stats can be skewed in either direction)

Hand 3: Pretty easy fold imo on the river
 
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bigspenda73
Old 01-13-2009, 09:59 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 Why does everyone want to bet the turn in hand 1?
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kmind
Old 01-13-2009, 05:22 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 Everyone likes the bet size on flop in hand 1?
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DA9ers
Old 01-13-2009, 05:45 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I think if you don't bet the turn in hand 1, you're pretty much giving up on the hand
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Illfavor
Old 01-13-2009, 07:20 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
Everyone likes the bet size on flop in hand 1?
Lol I didn't notice how huge of an overbet it was. It's a "Ima be sure you got no good odds" bet. I'd bet pot instead.

If we don't bet the turn we are pretty much giving up. My question is, how much of his range are we beating on the turn that's he's just calling?

His flop call seems like either a slowplayed straight (J9s, 86s), a naked 8 (A8, K8s), TPGK (JT-AT) or JJ. Most players are smart enough to raise with sets here, and KK+ preflop as well. So on the turn, we beat JJ and the TP hands. It seems really unlikely the TP hands are calling a turn bet here so we would likely take it down from them, and the str8s are raising us out. It doesn't seem like we're getting called from worse hands ever, and we are never ahead when we're raised. So what does that equal? c/f? c/c smallish bet?
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bigspenda73
Old 01-13-2009, 08:05 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 "If we don't bet the turn we're pretty much giving up"

yea, it's ok to lose a pot guys
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DA9ers
Old 01-13-2009, 08:16 PM #10 (permalink)  
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yeah but if we bet 1.50 into 4 on the turn....
1. It doesnt even have to work 1/2 of the time to be profitable
2. We find out where we really are in the hand
3. If he didn't hit his straight on the turn, and we check the river he might check down top pair thinking we're trying to c/r and get an extra bet.
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bigspenda73
Old 01-13-2009, 08:25 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DA9ers
1. It doesnt even have to work 1/2 of the time to be profitable
you're going to have to explain this
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mieczkowusc
Old 01-13-2009, 09:04 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Hand 1:

A. I would bet less on the flop, probably around .80 into .95.
B. I am checking the turn for sure, maybe calling a bet depending on the size. Villain isn't necessarily showing up with an 8 here, it could just be a TPTK type hand, an underpair that is floating, or two overs like AJ. Its okay to give up an overpair depending on the situation.

Hand 2: If villain is very tight and won't shove AK, then I'll usually muck this without a second thought. Even if he does, you aren't really looking good against AK, TT+. Unless villain shows up with a lot of lower pairs and or misc crap, I just let it go. If he is loose, you'll probably figure it out later in the session and will be able to exploit it.

Hand 3: I would have raised the flop, and bet the turn if the villain checked. You get a decent amount of fold equity, you are in position, and you likely have 12 outs against any top pair besides AK. This might be a generalization but most people don't assume you are on a draw at 10nl when you raise a flop bet.
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Stacks
Old 01-13-2009, 09:51 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Hand 2: Why are we 3betting JJ here if we are going to freeze up when villain 4bs? If we are 3betting it's because we feel we are ahead of villains 3bet calling range or 4betting/stackoff range. 3betting a hand with as much value as JJ then folding to a 4b would be absurd. Either 3b/get it in or don't 3bet in the first place here imo. It depends on your thoughts of villain. Yes he's like 65/35/5 or whatever and that's crazy... But remember he is opening from UTG, and your 3betting range against an UTG open should be the tightest you have. I likely don't 3bet preflop here against many villains unless I now they are felting lighter.

Hand 3: I'm likely not just calling A2s preflop. Hands like suited aces are good hands to put into a 3b bluff range, as they have blockers and perform decently against a 3b calling range. I'm not advocating 3bet bluffing here at 10nl though without reads/etc.

However, on flop I'm likely raising, and checking back turn for my free card. As played this is a trivial fold, although I'm not really sure what villain would be pot controlling on the turn and betting the river with as I don't give 10nl villains much credit for valuebetting Tx, JJ, QQ, and he should likely be 2 barreling his Kx type hands.

But yeah, anyways I haven't slept yet so if any of this is totally off base I will try to correct it when I get some rest.
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Sasquach991
Old 01-13-2009, 10:13 PM #14 (permalink)  
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A little more data here that may be necessary.

In Hand 1, I said villian was 45/20 but it may have been higher than this. The oversized bet was very intentional. Whether it was pot size or double pot size this guy would call. It was more of a value bet than anything else until I saw the the turn card for which 8X+ was definitely in his range. So is this c/f? c/c?

In Hand 2, villian was 67/35/5 or greater. About 10 hands later I took most of his stack with a set of J's where he had a pair of 4's which were not a pp.
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DA9ers
Old 01-13-2009, 11:37 PM #15 (permalink)  
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DA9ers wrote:
1. It doesnt even have to work 1/2 of the time to be profitable


you're going to have to explain this


Suppose he calls/raises half the time(assume we're done with the hand if he even calls) and folds half the time.

1.50 to win $4 and he calls = -1.50
1.50 to win $4 and he folds= +$4.00
Net result is +$2.50

So what if he folds only once times and calls/raises two times?

1.50 to win $4.00 and he folds= +4.00
1.50(2 times)to $4.00 and he raises/calls= -$3.00

Net Result is +$1.00


So for this bet size to make it a break even play it doesn't even have to work 1 out of 3 times.
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DA9ers
Old 01-13-2009, 11:45 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I think its reasonable to think that the bet of $1.50 would work about 1 out of 3 times
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bigspenda73
Old 01-14-2009, 12:05 AM #17 (permalink)  
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 what does "work" mean?
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DA9ers
Old 01-14-2009, 12:12 AM #18 (permalink)  
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work meaning, he folds, we're pretty much repping the 8 with a bet here, so its reasonable to think he folds 1/3 of the time. if he raises, he probably has an 8...and if not we can try to check the river and get a showdown.
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DA9ers
Old 01-14-2009, 12:16 AM #19 (permalink)  
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My feeling about this situation is that with the card that comes on the turn, the bet on the turn is essentially a bluff at a scary board. Either he has us or he doesn't. But if he doesn't have us, I think our continued betting on this dangerous board will get hands such as top pairs, overpairs, 2 pairs to fold.
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bigspenda73
Old 01-14-2009, 12:20 AM #20 (permalink)  
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 except anyone with a brain realizes it's very very difficult for us to have an 8 in our UTG range.

He's never folding 2pr on the turn but he'll fold a lot of worse hands, which sucks for us.
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DA9ers
Old 01-14-2009, 12:33 AM #21 (permalink)  
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A8s, 88, 78s,89s are all very conceivable hands, most likley A8s or 88...anyways this is 10nl, opponents at this level see us betting at a board with 4 to a straight and they don't have it, they are going to lay down their hands
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JR9477
Old 01-14-2009, 02:34 AM #22 (permalink)  
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JR9477 is an unknown quantity at this point
 On hand 1, I don't understand why we would want to bluff here, calling a massive overbet like that, he's either got something of value or he's a calling station.

Anyways...
I'd just c/f it, our hand is now vulnerable and his range is much too wide, and I really don't think we've gained much info from our betting.
If he's calling bets like this, there's likely to better spots to win money off of him.
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kettleofish
Old 01-14-2009, 09:41 AM #23 (permalink)  
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I kinda like the overbet in hand 1 if you know villain is a station. There's a tonne of pair+SD hands he'll call with.
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