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Evilpopcorn
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05-17-2009, 08:05 PM
Post subject: 10NL : 3-bet pot 3 ways on flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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(VP$IP/PFR [Street Aggression] 3-bet%)
MP : 23/16 [1 2 1] 5%
BTN: 18/14 [4 4 1] 4%
I think my 3-bet pre is a bit thin vs the MP opener give that he isnt horribly aggressive. I really enjoy 3-betting in position, but i do get a little "reckless" at times.
What in the world does a 18/14 cold call a 3-bet with ? I mean he aint setmining here. Well i guess if he is bad he could be....
Alright so its now a 3-bet pot 3 ways to the flop. Do i c-bet here ?
Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
UTG: $17.90
MP: $25.10
Hero (CO): $10.35
BTN: $9.00
SB: $12.70
BB: $9.40
Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO with J A
1 fold, MP raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, BTN calls $0.90, 2 folds, MP calls $0.60
Flop: ($2.85) 2 J K (3 players)
MP checks, Hero?,
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AdamThePirate
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 142
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fold pre?
as played I'd guess i'd c-bet around $2ish
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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I check flop here.
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Evilpopcorn
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 232
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Ok so in 2-bet pot when it comes to CBetting my understanding is that when its multiway the hand is going down to showdown alot of the time so u have to play the hand for it relative strength.
Now when it comes to 3-bet pots when u are the aggressor does this stay exactly the same? I mean with my 3-bet line does this make me look stronger than a normal open in a 2-bet pot so i can increase my fold equity on my c-bet? Saying all this i think the wetness of this flop still doesnt allow me to c-bet here.
Okay okay what i am trying to say (ramble on about in the hopes of getting clarity) is that in 3 ways 3-bet pots when you are the aggressor would it make sense to c-bet a little more liberally in general ?
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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1st off... There is no such thing as a 2-bet. The initial BB post counts as the first bet, so MP made the 2nd bet (referred to as simply a raise), and you 3bet (re-raised).
But yes, in general, when in a multiway pot most villains will play their hand more straightforward. There are more villains, which means more hand combos, which means a greater chance of a strong holding. It is because of this that your betting/calling/raising/etc range should be altered and weighted more towards stronger holdings.
In a 3bet pot, this should come into play even more. The pot being larger means the SPR is generally smaller. This leads to more straightforward play, because you have less room to maneuver.
Anyways, my logic on the flop is this... Their ranges are likely pretty strong.. Obviously real reads would be better here than just stats, but either way, BTNs stats don't look like someone who likes to Cold Call 3bets lightly. If we look at our hand and anaylze it against their possible ranges, we can pretty much assume that we likely don't have >50% equity against their calling range. So I don't feel we can cbet the flop for value. However, we do have decent Showdown value, so I also don't see a need to cbet in hopes of folds.
Basically to explain the above paragraph, I don't expect worse to call all that often, and I don't expect better to fold. Given we have good SD value, I'm checking here looking to pot control a bit, and evaluate on what the BTN and other villain do. On an ABCD theorem standpoint, we have B range hand.
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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how many hands are these stats over? if it's less than 100 then i think it's worthless to divide someone's AF over each individual street because the numbers are gonna be based on MINISCULE samples. if it's over a significant number of hands, then BU's 4 AF on the flop makes me feel slightly more inclined to bet because i think BU is betting this 100% of the time if he's checked to. not saying this is the right play but it seems like an important consideration
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas.  |
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settecba
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: stealing blinds from UTG
Posts: 326
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I would check here almost always, certanly in this case, taking into account everything stacks said. Just one more nitpicky thing, if were looking to valuebet in this spot, we need more than 50% equity against 2 villains calling range.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ISF
Getting good at poker is like that scene in the matrix where Neo suddenly sees that everyone is just a bunch of structured numbers and then he starts bending those numbers in really weird ways.
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Stacks
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
Posts: 2,605
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
then BU's 4 AF on the flop makes me feel slightly more inclined to bet because i think BU is betting this 100% of the time if he's checked to. not saying this is the right play but it seems like an important consideration
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Why would BTN betting 100% of his range make you more likely to cbet this hand?
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AFchung
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UCLA
Posts: 1,179
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check behind flop. a cbet is folding out worse hands and keeping in hands we lose to
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surviva316
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Confusing people with my liberal biblicisms
Posts: 1,625
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Quote:
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Originally Posted by surviva316
then BU's 4 AF on the flop makes me feel slightly more inclined to bet because i think BU is betting this 100% of the time if he's checked to. not saying this is the right play but it seems like an important consideration
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Why would BTN betting 100% of his range make you more likely to cbet this hand? |
yeah my logic is flawed. i don't like c/c'ing with MPTK, but if it's against someone who's betting very light, then it's more profitable then sticking it in yourself 'cause you're last in relative position in that case. i said it only makes me slightly more inclined just 'cause i hate c/c'ing here, but that doesn't make it right
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
I just wanted to share singing vaginas. |
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