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10,10 in 3 bet pot - these hands tilt me.

  
 
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Carroters
Old 02-06-2009, 06:52 PM     Post subject: 10,10 in 3 bet pot - these hands tilt me. #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain was newish at the table only got 28 hands but hes been quite active. Stats 33/24, att steal: 14, 3bet: 28.6.

This was the first hand the two of us had really played together.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($19.32)
Hero (Button) ($42.71)
SB ($24.33)
BB ($18.50)
UTG ($21.16)
MP ($58.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10, 10
UTG raises $0.80, 2 folds, Hero raises $2.50, 2 folds, UTG calls $1.70

Flop: ($5.30) 2, 9, J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.50, UTG raises $8, Hero folds

Total pot: $12.30

These spots make me feel like I've been outplayed sometimes, but I just couldn't see any better line than b/f flop.
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minSim
Old 02-06-2009, 07:15 PM #2 (permalink)  
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With this little info on villain I'd much rather call preflop and play a small/medium sized pot. You're basically gambling against his 3bet-calling and 4betting range because you know so little of him.

As played, check the flop. Why are you betting?
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Stacks
Old 02-06-2009, 07:39 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minSim
With this little info on villain I'd much rather call preflop and play a small/medium sized pot. You're basically gambling against his 3bet-calling and 4betting range because you know so little of him.

As played, check the flop. Why are you betting?
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bigspenda73
Old 02-06-2009, 07:56 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 If FTR could stop 3betting UTG openers so much it's make me a happy panda

Carroters, had he 4bet PF were you stacking off?
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Carroters
Old 02-06-2009, 08:20 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Nope you're right, I didn't intend to stack off pre which makes it a retarded 3 bet I just play bad.

As for checking the flop though is it not better to bet this flop to protect our hand and try to win the pot there and then rather than face an awkward bet on the turn and give him an oppertunity to fire overcards/underpairs he may well be c/f on this board.

As played assuming we'd bet a 9 7 4 flop - surely the presence of the jack doesn't hit his 3 bet calling range too hard and we can still elect to not give him a free card with AK,AQ etc.

Whats our turn plan after checking if he fires?
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daven
Old 02-06-2009, 09:22 PM     Post subject: Re: 10,10 in 3 bet pot - these hands tilt me. #6 (permalink)  
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 ok, three questions:
1) why 3-bet pre-flop?
2) care to provide an expected range for villain based on his pre-flop play? Then predict his flop play against a flop bet for the sections of his range?
3) as played, why not check flop behind?
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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kettleofish
Old 02-07-2009, 12:52 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
If FTR could stop 3betting UTG openers so much it's make me a happy panda
Seriously this. 28 hands is absolutely nothing, why force him into playing the top of his range when u know basically fuck all about his tendencies.

I have to say, related somewhat to Spenda's observation, that there seems to be a lot of overaggression creeping into the lower stakes without the ppl doing it have any real idea of why (especially 3 betting). The why is WAY more important than the fact you saw some balla on some training site 3 bet with t4s (or AXs, that seems to be popular at the mo)and c/shove a flush draw on the flop, because i can guarantee that he did so based on a lot more info than the fact that the other dude was XX/XX over X hands. Aggression just for the sake of being aggressive just serves to burn money faster than being passive, even more so when the average opponents* shoving range includes like zero bluffs.

* superdonks are not average opponents before anybody plays the old 'everyone at 10NL is a spazzo 60/20 bluffhappy monkey type player' card. It's not true, especially in relation to their PF stack-off ranges.
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daven
Old 02-07-2009, 01:47 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kettleofish
[there seems to be a lot of overaggression creeping into the lower stakes without the ppl doing it have any real idea of why (especially 3 betting).
this - you don't lose a lot of value only 3-betting KK+ at stakes up to and including 100nl
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Carroters
Old 02-07-2009, 03:45 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
this - you don't lose a lot of value only 3-betting KK+ at stakes up to and including 100nl
I disagree when this. At 20NL there is a ton of value imo 3 betting reletively light with a polarized range of AA KK QQ AK (AQ JJ 1010) - situational. Also say 20% of 3 bets being light 3 bets with the aformetniond suited aces connectors gappers small pp hands that can stack people in 3 bet pots.

I think this range is benificial for 2 main reasons.

1. People at 20NL have no idea how to react to 3 bets they'll generally fold everything marginal all the time. We make a ton of money jus 3 betting light button and CO openners and 3 betting in position they fold way too often and never 4 bet light.

2. If they call us (which is how theyll mostly defend with non AA KK QQ AK) We can town them when they make top pair to our overpair etc cos they cant lay down anything in a 3 bet pot.

I agree the 3 bet with 1010 was bad against this guys range utg and I certainly didn't base the decision on the 28 hands stats I had - it was a dumb insta mistake.

If you chose to only 3 bet KK+ you lose a ton of value and put yourself in uneccessarily annoying spots and multiway pots you don't want with the JJ QQ AKs etc - Players at 20NL love to call pre flop raises all the time multiway when they thinking have pot odds or just being loose passive. 3 Bet their opening ranges when at their weakest with a wider value range than this and pwn them with some light 3 bets cos they suck against it.
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hangchiong
Old 02-07-2009, 12:15 PM #10 (permalink)  
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If we have a read,that villain's opening range UTG includes any pp and suited broadways.Is 3betting TT +ev?

I only 3bet my opp very light,when i have a huge hands stats and reads on him,and knowing that,i can outplay him on the flop.

Daven has advised that 3betting isnt a big leak in the micros!
I think being a 3betting monkey is!
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bjsaust
Old 02-07-2009, 12:34 PM #11 (permalink)  
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You dont need to cbet every flop.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Muzzard
Old 02-07-2009, 12:46 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Don't 3bet preflop unless its in your value stack off range or a bluff.

The fact he's is UTG makes this fairly easy call ppreflop and I'm certainly not wanting to turn TT into a bluff pf when it has so much pot flop equity.
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Carroters
Old 02-07-2009, 03:09 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 I completely agree with this.
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texa8
Old 02-09-2009, 12:01 AM #14 (permalink)  
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I call this preflop and play for set/overpair giving respect to UTG raise from unknown villain.
due to this i agree with the check behind on the flop. I also think the flop is a little drawy for cBet and is unlikely to have missed his range entirely.
I check and hope for 10 on the turn, or cheap showdown with no more overs...
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