Poker Forum
Over 1,189,000 Posts!
Poker ForumBeginners Circle

[6-Max] 25NL: Calling/Shoving Ranges In 3,4,5-Bet Situations

Results 1 to 2 of 2
  1. #1
    Bradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    75
    Location
    Leveling myself at the low stakes tables

    Default [6-Max] 25NL: Calling/Shoving Ranges In 3,4,5-Bet Situations

    I've been playing 6-Max recently, and though this game is overall more aggressive than FR, most regs seem to be pretty straight forward especially in pre-flop situations.
    Not realising this was a leak in my game when I started off, by over-thinking and not giving my opps enough credit(+Fancy Play Syndrome) It's 25NL !!
    How many people that supposedly know what they are doing(so not lagtard spewfish, but the 'regs' that read a bit about pot odds), are really 3b/4b bluffing etc. at these stakes? I think very few..

    I have a few friends who play from 50NL up to 600NL+ and they often ship/5bet AK and QQ ish hands vs 4bets.. as people are way more aggro at those stakes.

    I'm just posting a few hands to see what your standard play would be and maybe fix some leaks !

    Note: I started out as an SnG player, made the transition to FR cash and now to 6M Cash. This might effect my play in these spots.

    -----------

    Hand 1

    Villain here was 26/22 with 15%(20) 3bet over only 46 ish hands. Only notes where that he liked defending his blinds with way too big 3bets which he folded to a 4bet.

    No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    CO ($26.80)
    Button ($25.90)
    SB ($25.10)
    BB ($25.05)
    Hero (UTG) ($26.15)
    MP ($25)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K
    Hero bets $1, 2 folds, Button raises $3, 2 folds, Hero raises $9.50, Button raises $22.90 (All-In), Hero ?

    What do we do here when he 3bets?
    -Fold
    -Flatcall
    -4Bet and get it in
    -4Bet/Fold

    As played when we 4bet and get shoved on, we really don't have a choice or do we?

    Hand 2

    Villain here was 19/17 with 11%(18) 3bet, no notes. Basically a typical 25NL TAG probably.

    No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    CO ($6.20)
    Button ($50.95)
    SB ($23.10)
    BB ($53.05)
    Hero (UTG) ($36.35)
    MP ($25)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
    Hero bets $1, 2 folds, Button raises $3.50, 2 folds, Hero raises $8, Button raises $16, Hero ?

    Same story/question here. But we're a bit deeper and his min5bet looks so gay.

    -----------

    Don't get me wrong; this is not a "omg bad beat/cry" topic, because obviously I got beat in these hands or I wouldn't have posted.
    This is more to discuss ranges the typical TAG kinda reg at 25NL is 3/4/5betting with Pre Flop.

    Like when your AK gets 3bet do you flat or 4b/fold, because how many worse hands are calling? Obviously it's player dependent and there are some reg's that I 3b/4b light against because they also 3b light.
    But vs a TAG AJ/AQ is out of the question, best case we're up against QQ and flipping, worst case we need to spike an A or 2 K's?
    Or am I thinking to straightforward here..

    Opinions please, also if anyone knows a strat post that discusses these things please say so !
  2. #2
    Carroters's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    2,810
    Location
    Da Amberlamps
    Think about your equity vs pot odds in both these hands. After you've 4-bet, 100bb deep, folding to his shove is completely horrible vs just about any realistic range he can have.

    I mean after you 4 bet the QQ for example, you can never ever fold here unless you are much deeper. Say villain's getting it in range is [QQ+ AK]

    Hand 0: 40.207% 38.35% 01.86% 19042240 923339.00 { QhQs }
    Hand 1: 59.793% 57.93% 01.86% 28767898 923339.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

    You still have 40% equity ffs and are getting way more than enough odds to call the shove. With AK you have a similar choice with the same amount of equity vs this standard 25NL TAG range for shipping over a 4 bet. I'd say this range is fine given that you opened utg, if this was CO vs BU or something we can start to include JJ maybe AQs depending on the villain and the ship becomes even easier.

    So, after we 4-bet we don't have a decision here at all we just shrug and get it in.

    So why do we 4-bet if all we have is 40% equity vs his range if he ships. Well with AK we can fold out othewr hands he may 3 bet like JJ TT bluffs and profit.

    With QQ it can sometimes be better just to flat the 3 bet, especially in position. A good spot to flat QQ might be when villain 3 bets [TT-AA AQs AK] but folds all but [AK QQ-AA] to a 4 bet. Here flatting is probably better unless this guy pwns souls post flop or something. Because now we leave the hands we crush in his range and can exploit him post flop especially if he c bets too much, like many 25NL regs do. We have 52% now vs his range and don't lose our stack to AK while still being able to stack TT JJ on low flops. Also he will play JJ TT passivley most likely on ace and king high flops so we rarely have to fold the best hand.

    So vs these ranges we are evidently doing much better to flat the QQ preflop.

    Say we opened in the CO though and villain the 3 bets us on the BU 100bb deep and you've been battling a fair amount reg on reg.

    Now his felting to a 4-bet range will be wider as you can show up with 5-bet bluffs in your range. Now it's defo better to ship QQ in knowing he may get it in preflop with 99+ AQ+ or something.

    So the question isn't about whether to 4-bet fold 100bbs deep it's how to deal with the 3 bet in the first place and deciidng what a likely felting and 3-betting range is for villain and playing accordingly to exploit that range and how he plays it postflop.

    But say we have no info at all, a generally good policy at 25NL is to felt AA KK and AK pre flop after opening utg and getting 3 bet and calling with QQ in position.

    Both of those spots you posted however are easy stack offs especially given the stats and reads you have on the villains.

    So yeah please never 4-bet fold AK or QQ 100bbs deep. Only 4 bet fold bluffs.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All content
©  2003 - 2014
FlopTurnRiver.com
Testimonials  |   Terms & Conditions  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  

FTR is your home for Texas Holdem Strategy, Poker Forum, Poker Tools & Poker Videos
http://www.flopturnriver.com/copyscape.gif
DMCA.com
This is not a gambling website.