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$5nl - lol at me 4betting please remind me not to do this

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-30-2009, 02:15 AM     Post subject: $5nl - lol at me 4betting please remind me not to do this #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain stats: 32/19/11.5 with a 30% 3-bet.

Uber 3-betting monkey, c-betting monkey, aggro tard squeezing etc. He c-bets oop alot too vs other villains.

Should I EVER 4-bet bluff here, or just 4-bet for pure value.

Fwiw I don't think A4s is for value here so I decided to 4-bet fold...

Comments on the play and sizing? I thought about min 4-betting and making it 1.70 so I decided to make it 1.40.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($1.93)
Hero (CO) ($5)
Button ($12.96)
SB ($1.97)
BB ($9.20)
UTG ($14.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4, A
2 folds, Hero bets $0.20, Button raises to $0.70, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.40, Button raises to $12.96 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $2.87 | Rake: $0


In hindsight when I look back at the hand I realize he's probably 5-bet shoving into any 4-bets so I should probably just 4-bet for value. The question is (since his 3-bet stat isn't really entirely reliable yet due to the sample size), what range should I be willing to get arin here?

Was thinking something like AKo+,AQs+,JJ+....
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Micro2Macro
Old 04-30-2009, 02:15 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I really think I could have just folded and moved on tbh but I at least wanted to get the point across that he's not going to be able to continously 3-bet me.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

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bjsaust
Old 04-30-2009, 02:20 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I dont see anything wrong with this. Really depends on what range you think he 4-bets with, and how often he'll fold. If you're just being results oriented about his shove, then this is fine, if you thought at the time he was likely to shove then sure its bad.

If that makes sense.
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-30-2009, 02:27 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjsaust
I dont see anything wrong with this. Really depends on what range you think he 4-bets with, and how often he'll fold. If you're just being results oriented about his shove, then this is fine, if you thought at the time he was likely to shove then sure its bad.

If that makes sense.
I see what you mean. I was actually pretty unsure about whether he shoves or not at the time. Thinking back though about his 'get the last bet in style' I guess I should have seen a 5-bet coming. Tough to say for sure though since sample is still small and he could have just had it this time.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

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kmind
Old 04-30-2009, 02:27 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 No the reason you do this stuff is vs. wide BUT passive ranges. I doubt he's really passive much at all, I'd go strictly for value vs. him
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-30-2009, 02:29 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmind
No the reason you do this stuff is vs. wide BUT passive ranges. I doubt he's really passive much at all, I'd go strictly for value vs. him
oh okay, so if villain was Taggier instead of Laggy it would be better because a Tag is less likely to 5bet w/o a very strong range?

Like I've noticed at 10nl and 25nl where there are a few Tag bots that 3bet pretty liberally in position (way more 25nl than 10nl lol), they tend to shut down to 4bets quite easily and usually tone down the 3betting as an adjustment instead of 5betting light.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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kmind
Old 04-30-2009, 02:34 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 Yeah you are basically heading on the right track but just remember it's all about the % they fold. If they are high 3bettors but fold 50% of the time they're definitely getting it in way more than players who 3bettor a low amount and fold 50% of the time. Do you see what I mean. In the first case, we should 4bet strictly for value because he's going to be in a lot of 4bet pots. Just remember, in this case, we can expand our value range so it's not like we are playing muuuuch nittier. Vs. aggressive ranges we should have a strong range. Vs. passive rangse we can have wider ranges.
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bjsaust
Old 04-30-2009, 02:34 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Sometimes you only find out how a person will react by testing them. I like to do it with AX hands so at least I have a blocker to AK.

3-bet monkeys dont have passive ranges Kmind, I'm confused by your point here.

Does sound a bit like an aggro-tard that will shove a lot, so maybe better to wait for a hand you'd call with, but if you've been inline so far then this should look strong, sometimes these guys notice that. I still dont think its terrible by any means. If nothing else, next time you do this with a big hand he's that much more likely to shove as you've folded before, just make sure to keep your betsizing the same. Dont pick up AA and 4-bet to $2 for instance.
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kmind
Old 04-30-2009, 02:36 AM #9 (permalink)  
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 Ben - they all have "wide" ranges...not necessarily "passive" ranges. People can have wide and aggressive ranges and this villain seems to posses this trait.
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bjsaust
Old 04-30-2009, 02:41 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Ok, I get what you're saying. I guess I'm stuck thinking of passive as calling. Agree it depends on how often they fold, and this is probably not the right guy with reads, but sometimes you just gotta test them to find out.
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bigspenda73
Old 04-30-2009, 02:44 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 shove
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-30-2009, 02:51 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
shove
we're the ones 4-betting...

are you talking about 4-bet shoving here?
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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bigspenda73
Old 04-30-2009, 03:04 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 obv

you should be 4bet jamming 22+ as well
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Parasurama
Old 04-30-2009, 04:36 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Can't you buy in for 200BB on PS 5NL?
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bigspenda73
Old 04-30-2009, 04:38 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 why would you if there's a 3bet monkey w/ position on you
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bjsaust
Old 04-30-2009, 04:48 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Which brings up the point that if you're uncomfortable here, its perfectly fine to leave and find an easier table.
Just playing to improve.
 
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Parasurama
Old 04-30-2009, 05:21 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
why would you if there's a 3bet monkey w/ position on you
true, I just wanted to know in general is he buying in for 100 or 200
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-30-2009, 05:37 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 Buying in for 100 since I usually play tables where I'm buying in for 100 anyway.

I'll usually leave if I'm oop vs someone deep when I'm also deep unless they are super nitty.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Old 04-30-2009, 01:04 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
shove
I did some math and I convinced myself that even if his calling range is tight we don't really lose money by shoving because we're ensuring that we see a showdown

say he will monkey 5b you with almost anything, then you should make your 4b small the first time with a good hand
but if you have crap and you think he only calls with a pretty good hand for a shove... then a 4b shove is better... but in fact there is no way he can have 30% 3b and be unexploitable against a 4b shove

let's do sum pokerstovan
1.40 in the pot with our call
we're shoving 3.60 more

let's say he's suprisingly tight at calling 4b shoves given his 3betting


Hand 0: 69.288% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 1: 30.712% { A4s }

we're winning $10 30% of the time, we're putting in $3.60 for that result
we're only losing $.60 when called and that's only 3.8% of hands so he has to fold 87%! we make 90 cent profit every time he folds and only lose 60 cents every time he calls

that's pretty surprising
even if he has super user account and calls us with
Hand 0: 63.681% { 44+, A4s+, A4o+ }
Hand 1: 36.319% { A4s }

that's still only 17% and he has to fold like 45% of his hands to a shove (not to mention we already have the pot odds to stack off)
a 4b shove against his 3bing range is unexploitable
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-30-2009, 06:37 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 props to iopq for doing the math.

the interesting part about this is in practice his 3bet% could truly be a shit ton lower and he's just running sick hot and only 3betting a strong range with maybe 1-2 'bluffy' hands in.

but given my reads I think a 4-bet shove is in fact the best play here as shown by the numbers.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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bigspenda73
Old 04-30-2009, 07:10 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 yea math is cool despite what the blonde sitting two rows behind you thinks
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-30-2009, 07:11 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
yea math is cool despite what the blonde sitting two rows behind you thinks

llllllooooollllll
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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bigspenda73
Old 04-30-2009, 07:37 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
shove
I did some math and I convinced myself that even if his calling range is tight we don't really lose money by shoving because we're ensuring that we see a showdown
well we want his calling range to be really tight (and then obv. v strong). The wider his calling range, the less FE we have, and the more likely there are hands with ~65%+ equity in the additional range against us. Thus, that brings his folding frequency down and our $won through FE down as well.

Sooooooo, if he 3bets rly wide but only calls with a v tight range then I 4b shoving should be good until he adjusts. I'd still rather have 44 here than A4s.
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Old 04-30-2009, 08:47 PM #24 (permalink)  
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he's like 35/30 with a 3b of 28.6
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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($97)
Hero (UTG) ($74)
MP ($143.60)
Button ($169.15)
SB ($69.15)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6, A
Hero bets $3, 1 fold, Button raises to $12, 2 folds, Hero raises to $74 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $25.50 | Rake: $0
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bigspenda73
Old 04-30-2009, 08:50 PM #25 (permalink)  
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 added bonus of owning someone who sucks at life and doesn't size their 3bets correctly
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:28 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
added bonus of owning someone who sucks at life and doesn't size their 3bets correctly
actually I was just watching Ed Miller's video and he makes the same bet sizing against full-stacked opponents
... but it works out for him because they call the 3b and c/f the flop when they miss
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bigspenda73
Old 04-30-2009, 11:35 PM #27 (permalink)  
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 so someone whose famous for beating the world's easiest limit games 15 years ago is who you get your NL advice from?
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Ragnar4
Old 04-30-2009, 11:48 PM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
added bonus of owning someone who sucks at life and doesn't size their 3bets correctly
What *should* his 3-bet have been? 9?
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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bigspenda73
Old 04-30-2009, 11:51 PM #29 (permalink)  
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 yea $8-$10
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:08 AM #30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
so someone whose famous for beating the world's easiest limit games 15 years ago is who you get your NL advice from?
Actually his advice in the video is otherwise good because he tells to stop flatting in CO to EP/MP raises, don't call a raise with ATo from SB, etc. it's the kind of stupid shit I've been doing under the guise of "loosening up" when I'm really just pissing money

like today I called a raise when I was in the MP with KQo, BU squeezed and I say fuck it and shoved because he was a loose squeezer
but then I thought god damn the situation I put myself was aweful
sure, the guy folded to my raise but is it really EV+ to flat a UTG raise with a marginal hand when I can easily get squeezed or be dominated?

also I called with KQs on the CO and got stacked on the flop by queens in a similar situation where I just flatted a UTG opener and flopped a queen
I wasn't quite full stacked (buying in for $74, lolz?) but it doesn't excuse bad play

tl;dr I am not better than Ed Miller
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