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$25NL Line Check VS Unknown (Facing Donk Bet)

  
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-16-2009, 09:28 AM     Post subject: $25NL Line Check VS Unknown (Facing Donk Bet) #1 (permalink)  
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 Villain is 75/0 so far, yet only 12 hands so basically unknown.

Does anyone prefer calling > raising?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($5)
BB ($21.55)
UTG ($5.20)
UTG+1 ($16.05)
MP1 ($5.50)
MP2 ($5.50)
Hero (CO) ($25)
Button ($28.80)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero bets $1.25, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $1

Flop: ($2.85) 5, 9, A (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.50, Hero raises to $2, UTG+1 calls $1.50

Turn: ($6.85) 4 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

River: ($6.85) 6 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Total pot: $7.85 | Rake: $0.35
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Lucothefish
Old 04-16-2009, 10:06 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 I would have flat called the river too. Straight, flush, and an ace on the board vs. unknown, it's hard to raise here.
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-16-2009, 10:08 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 I mean on flop. I'm never raising river.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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Lucothefish
Old 04-16-2009, 10:17 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Fuck yeah you're raising that flop. I probably would have raised to pot.

Just out of interest, what reason would you give for calling the flop instead of raising? To draw to the flush on the cheap?
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texa8
Old 04-16-2009, 11:59 AM #5 (permalink)  
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are you happy to get it in if he 3bets you, say $8-10??

if not then i think smooth calling in position here is not so bad imo..
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surviva316
Old 04-16-2009, 03:28 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 i would hardly call this a smooth call. he only bet a fifth of the pot so you're not getting sufficient value off of just calling this waste of space bet. a small donk/call line on a wet board smells like a stop bet, so i'm considering double barrelling the turn. as played you've lost all equity against flushes and aces, so it's too late to get value imo
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Cougar
Old 04-16-2009, 07:20 PM #7 (permalink)  
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This is an interesting spot on the flop....

Against normal thinking opponents, I'd be concerned that re-raising folds out alot of hands that we can get value from later and only keeps AQ+, Qdx/Jdx/10dx, 2 pairs, sets in the hand which significantly reduces our equity.

Also, think you only re-raise if you are willing to call/felt a 3-bet re-raise.

Now in this specific case we have very fishy stats, although over an admittedly minimal sample, so maybe you can bet for value if you believe the fish will stay in with worst.

Personally, I flat call here and see what the turn brings, ensure we see another card and get the money in on the turn/river.

As played, call river.
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2ndline.4thstreet
Old 04-16-2009, 07:25 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I think you have to raise on the flop. I'd raise to pot but other than that I think your line is good here.
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Cougar
Old 04-16-2009, 08:50 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I must be dense....

Can someone please articulate rationale as to why we are advocating raising flop when we have 9 outs (7 or 8 if someone has a flush or is drawing) to beat a hand that will call?

Are we trying to use fold out AJ/AQ- hands??
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okiman
Old 04-16-2009, 09:32 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucothefish
Fuck yeah you're raising that flop. I probably would have raised to pot.

Just out of interest, what reason would you give for calling the flop instead of raising? To draw to the flush on the cheap?

To get value out of hands we might otherwise fold out. Just because he's a 75% vpip, doesn't mean he won't fold garbage or spp/mpp here. I've had these type of players frequently donk into me on scary flops and immediately fold to a flop raise. But give them some rope and they'll keep betting their garbage. We're certainly not afraid of them drawing out on us on this board. The great part is often times these players will have the Jd or Qd and treat it like the nuts when it hits.

Count me in the dense camp with Cougar. What are we trying to accomplish by raising?
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Micro2Macro
Old 04-16-2009, 09:45 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 yeah i thought about maybe just calling down to the river to keep anything junky in that he's betting.

If I had just Kx without a pair, I imagine raising would be better because of the added fold equity if he won't continue with a weak pair.

does that seem to make sense?
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Old 04-16-2009, 10:45 PM #12 (permalink)  
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wtf you on
I'm flatting the flop
1. he's not folding an ace/flush
2. he's folding second pair
3. he's folding a smaller diamond

every hand that beats us calls
every hand we beat folds

if he checks the turn I bet it
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surviva316
Old 04-16-2009, 11:10 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 for the sake of argument, 75/0's who donk lead <1/2 pot with a draw aren't generally scared away by a reasonable raise. i'm not saying that this makes it worth it to raise here, but i have his range down to draws or monsters when they donk small like that. so i actually think the MAJORITY of his continuing range is dominated by us.
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Old 04-17-2009, 02:05 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by surviva316
for the sake of argument, 75/0's who donk lead <1/2 pot with a draw aren't generally scared away by a reasonable raise. i'm not saying that this makes it worth it to raise here, but i have his range down to draws or monsters when they donk small like that. so i actually think the MAJORITY of his continuing range is dominated by us.
OK, then bet the durn

durn because it's DUH BET IT
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Old 04-17-2009, 06:59 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Lol, basically what iopq said.

Think about it. He MIGHT (probably would) call with the Qd, less often with the Jd and almost never the <Td. So raising folds a LOT of the hands we crush right now. However, hands he 3bets/felts here are sets and two pair and possibly (not likely) QdXx/JdXx, and made flushes obv.

If he bets turn, easy call again. If he checks, hes more than likely drawing and doesn't have the flush/set/two pair. Same with river.

As played, call river is fine although you likely aren't ahead.
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Lucothefish
Old 04-17-2009, 09:28 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 I advocated raising big on the flop because I think we're behind here. Ax is a large part of his range and a small raise won't fold it. You'll see Ax a lot more than T9-K9 or mid pps here, the donk bet suggests at least a pair and I'm not convinced it's 9's.

But I'm wrong. Day 1 of the poker academy - you can't bluff a station. Representing the flush here is spewing chips. So it's a call / re-evaluate on the turn, and I'm a tard.
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tyrn
Old 04-17-2009, 02:49 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Raising is good since you have good equity in this pot, even decent vs a made flush, and it may have gotten you the free card on the turn. Then again, you could have bet $5 on turn and still have decent implied odds, plus folding out some Ax hands. We know for sure he doesn't have the A or K of diamonds so these bets might get him second guessing his made flush on the small chance he has it. Also if he has a 78 you're letting him get there by not betting turn.
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amifat
Old 04-17-2009, 02:56 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucothefish
I advocated raising big on the flop because I think we're behind here. Ax is a large part of his range and a small raise won't fold it. You'll see Ax a lot more than T9-K9 or mid pps here, the donk bet suggests at least a pair and I'm not convinced it's 9's.

But I'm wrong. Day 1 of the poker academy - you can't bluff a station. Representing the flush here is spewing chips. So it's a call / re-evaluate on the turn, and I'm a tard.
We don't really have enuf reads to be raising the flop imo, if Ax is a large part of his range then i think we should call flop, bet/fold turn, as played i call this river.
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AFchung
Old 04-17-2009, 03:00 PM #19 (permalink)  
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i'd rather call this one down than raise unless we hit a diamond
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