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Knytestorme
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01-21-2009, 10:56 AM
Post subject: $10NL, ~200bb deep, weird spot
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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villain was 15/12 over 87 hands with 0% 3-bet
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop
MP ($12.90)
CO ($9.75)
Button ($10)
SB ($10.55)
Hero (BB) ($18.80)
UTG ($11.10)
Preflop: Hero is BB with K , K
1 fold, MP raises $0.40, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.30
Flop: ($0.85) 9, 10, 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.60, Hero raises $1.70, MP raises $3.40, Hero folds
Total pot: $4.25
Guess the question is, does he do this with without it being AK/Q of diamonds, or AA with the A of diamonds given his stats?
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hangchiong
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 359
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1)3bet your KK.10NL villain wont really get your idea slowplaying KK.and you're OOP
2)When you 3bet KK,you can narrow down villain's ranges,therefore playing it more profitably OOP.
3)Wet flop.Bet 80% of the pot.When villain re-raises on the flop,we are pretty lost with the ranges here.3bet pf!!!
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kevster
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Fold City
Posts: 758
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You find yourself in a tricky position because you didn't raise pre-flop.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kevster
You find yourself in a tricky position because you didn't raise pre-flop.
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explain plz
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xX zorrito Xx
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wellington, FL
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kevster
You find yourself in a tricky position because you didn't raise pre-flop.
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this...
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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why?
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nibbles
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 374
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kevster
You find yourself in a tricky position because you didn't raise pre-flop.
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explain plz |
I agree. A pre-flop re-raise narrows down his range. Especially since he has position on you, the re-raise should be a little bigger than if we had position on him. Villain could make this play with hands that you have crushed (JJ, QQ) cos he puts YOU on the draw or possibly AT. Since this is a 6-max game, players have wider pfr ranges so he could even have JT suited. You don't know cos you didn't re-raise. To flat call villains pfr with KK you have to KNOW you can outplay him post-flop.
I'm far from an expert, and I just moved from 2NL to 5NL. At 5NL I am seeing alot of players slowplaying AA, KK, and QQ and I don't get it. Sure I limp these from time to time, but I'm hoping for someone to raise so I can re-raise and try to get their stack (not so often with QQ though). Fancy play syndrome imho.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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so if we 3bet PF, cbet and get raised that makes it an easier spot?
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nibbles
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 374
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Somewhat easier, yes. 6 handed most people raise AT suited but wont call big 3bet with it, imo. A healthy 3bet takes away set odds for TT, 99, and 66. I would have made a healthy re-raise cos we are OOP, and it is better to win the small pot than lose big one. The big re-raise usually makes AA reveal strength and 4bets. As played, hero has to give serious consideration to every possible hand, from AA to T9 suited to AT suited to 66. In a 6 handed game villain could easily have all as played, and had good odds for each. Hero has no idea where he stands now.
IMHO
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hangchiong
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Flush
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 359
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
so if we 3bet PF, cbet and get raised that makes it an easier spot?
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I would say this is an uglier spot than if we smooth call pf.Tougher to lay it down.
Then again,people's usual advice would be 3betting KK.Then again,his line on the flop is pretty interesting and good,folding after a min raise.
We lose less than when we get raised on the flop(3bet KK),and call and on the turn play,and still be clueless.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I'm not sending a message either way about PF but I'd typically 3bet and I typically would be 3betting a big range here to make up for how deep we are instead of 3betting to some huge amount.
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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[ ] 200BB deep
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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nibbles
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 374
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It must be my lack of experience cos "tougher to lay down" and "lose less" aren't going through my mind when I'm looking at AA / KK in the hole. I'm trying to maximize the profits on my likely advantage. And as Spenda said, he'd likely 3bet a big range here. That's an aggressive stance for 6 handed game where villain is likely to have a wide open raise range. If it was full ring and UTG+1 opened, our 3bet range would have to tighten. The fact that this is 6 handed simplifies our pre-flop course of action, and leads to easier decisions on later streets. They only reason to flat call is for the sake of mixing up our play, which would mean hero and villain have a history, which means you should have a read on opponent and a reasonable expectation of outplaying him post flop.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not telling, I'm asking. Trying to learn here.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
[ ] 200BB deep
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hah didn't even notice this
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nibbles
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 374
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
[ ] 200BB deep
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hah didn't even notice this |
Is this about effective stack size?
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kevster
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Fold City
Posts: 758
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
so if we 3bet PF, cbet and get raised that makes it an easier spot?
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Point taken. My bad. It plays much the same either way and we're actually more committed with the pre-flop 3bet right?
I still 3bet a decent amount but it doesn't necessarily help the post flop situation in this case.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Actually not being 200bb 3betting would make it a lot easier to stack-off post-flop. I dunno why OP thought he was 200bb deep but he's not.
I probably stack off in either case really (3betting or not pre-flop).
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GatorJH
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by nibbles
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
[ ] 200BB deep
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hah didn't even notice this |
Is this about effective stack size? |
MP ($12.90) = approx. 130BB's, i.e. closer to 100 than 200.
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Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
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kevster
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Fold City
Posts: 758
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I probably stack off in either case really (3betting or not pre-flop).
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Yeah, easy stack off at 10NL
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nibbles
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 374
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by GatorJH
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nibbles
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
[ ] 200BB deep
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hah didn't even notice this |
Is this about effective stack size? |
MP ($12.90) = approx. 130BB's, i.e. closer to 100 than 200. |
Got it. The others are talking about how OP isn't 200 deep, but he's close enough to say he is imo. The fact that villain isn't 200 deep is what matters. Kool n' the Gang.
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Knytestorme
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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Wel I was going to write something snarky about Jack not understanding what ~ means, but you're right....I was considering my stack rather than villains.
Having said that, doesn't this tighten his range down even further since he has to know that if I have a hand after his min-raise then we're playing for stacks?
Now to my thought processes on the hand after seeing what people have to say.
* Pre-flop I looked at his stats and position and decided I would smooth call rather than 3-bet since if he just called I still wouldn't have much info on the flop and now my hand is disguised fairly well if he is holding what I had put him on (JJ+/AQ+) and I get a favourable flop
* On the flop my plan was always to c/r a non-A flop. Given my hand is under-repped I assume if he's holding something at the bottom of his range then he'll likely fold to a decent reraise or call with overs to see what happens on the turn. Once he min-raises I think that narrows his range down to AA/AK with the A of diamonds or AQs....ok, possibly he's holding a pocket pair that has now hit a set.
I can't see his line (at this level) be anything but a hand that's quite happy to play for stacks against the big stack at the table (since if I call he has a little over a psb left and the turn and river to come) and I don't see how I'm not behind to it here.
I'm willing to accept that not raising pre made this hand harder, but I don't think it was a totally bad move at the time based on my read of his stats and play up till then so I'm interested to hear opinions now on the thoughts I had that led to my play over all.
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