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View Poll Results: $ per Hour
Less than $10	9	40.91%
$10-$15	5	22.73%
$15-$20	2	9.09%
$25-$30	6	27.27%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

Your $ winrate per hour?

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rubixstreub

01-09-2006, 03:22 AM Post subject: Your $ winrate per hour?

#1 (permalink)

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all you fellas that play 2/4 and 3/6 (full or short handed)

I ask this because I saw Ultimate George post that he makes $30 an hour at NL100 (maybe he was exaggerating, maybe I'm misquoting). But I would assume 100NL has about the same skill spread of the 2/4-3/6 limit games (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption). I was just curious to see from FTR folks how far the limit game is behind the NL game in profit.

If you feel comfortable divulging personal win rate and at what stakes, it would be appreciated.

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Cocco_Bill

01-09-2006, 04:09 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Including bonuses I make over $50/h playing 100NL...

|~|ypermegachi

01-09-2006, 05:15 AM

#3 (permalink)

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can anyone multitable 8+ tables playing NL ring?

Cocco_Bill

01-09-2006, 05:42 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

can anyone multitable 8+ tables playing NL ring?

Yes, I know of many players who do it.

I usually play three 6-max and three full ring tables at once. I could easily play eight full ring tables with a dual monitor setup.

elipsesjeff

01-09-2006, 07:20 AM

#5 (permalink)

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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

IMO, $30/hour is more than doable 4 tabling 3/6 6max, especially with rakeback/bonuses.

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More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

mike4066

01-09-2006, 12:47 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

IMO, $30/hour is more than doable 4 tabling 3/6 6max, especially with rakeback/bonuses.

Simply beating the game 4 tables @ 1bb/100 will net you $24 / hr..

euphoricism

01-09-2006, 01:44 PM

#7 (permalink)

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assuming we're doing 100 hands an hour.. (which may be a tad on the high side, 90 is the "standard" figure), at 1bb per 100..

2/4 6max: 1bb/hr = $4/ hour. Quad tabled, $16/hour.
3/6 6max: 1bb/hr = $6/hour, Quadded $24/hour.
5/10 6max: 1bb/hr = $5/hour, Quadded, $50/hour.

Now, increase to 2bb/hr, and your profit is growing exponentially. 5/10 6max, $100/hour sounds nice, don't it.

Note that I dont particularly endorse playing 6max below 3/6. I just think FR is more profitable.

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MannerBoy

01-09-2006, 03:35 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

can anyone multitable 8+ tables playing NL ring?

I 10 tabling for a living.

01-09-2006, 05:59 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MannerBoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

can anyone multitable 8+ tables playing NL ring?

I 10 tabling for a living.

Good thing you're not writing for a living.

|~|ypermegachi

01-09-2006, 06:45 PM

#10 (permalink)

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i only mention the multitabling thing cuz i can't imagine how pissed off a lot of people would be if they misclicked calling an all in. i'm guessing on average he action on NL ring is probably slower than limit ring.

elipsesjeff

01-09-2006, 07:59 PM

#11 (permalink)

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You can multitable the lower buyin NL tabless when all you're doing is set camping.

Also, Soupie confessed to me the other day he could make more money playing limit hold'em than he could playing MTTs...

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Cocco_Bill

01-09-2006, 08:33 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

You can multitable the lower buyin NL tabless when all you're doing is set camping.

Its possible to multitable any level of NL...it just takes more skill than the limit game.

MannerBoy

01-09-2006, 08:37 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by MannerBoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

can anyone multitable 8+ tables playing NL ring?

I 10 tabling for a living.

Good thing you're not writing for a living.

At least i make money and i know who my real mother is ...

pokerfanatic

01-09-2006, 08:40 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Including bonuses I make over $50/h playing 100NL...

this is in a limit topic why are we talking NL?

If you use PT you can find your WR/HR and WR/100 under session tab and click more detail. You can also find your Standard Devotion in the same location…

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Cocco_Bill

01-09-2006, 08:44 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Including bonuses I make over $50/h playing 100NL...

this is in a limit topic why are we talking NL?

Because

Quote:

I ask this because I saw Ultimate George post that he makes $30 an hour at NL100 (maybe he was exaggerating, maybe I'm misquoting).

Clearly he is not exaggerating.

siknd

01-09-2006, 09:34 PM

#16 (permalink)

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no one makes 30-50$/hr at 100 NL.

'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '

elipsesjeff

01-09-2006, 09:54 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Most people's winrates are over too small a sample size that it isnt accurate. Limit hourly winrates are more than easily calculable but NL winrates are so volatile you can't really touch them. Unless they show me actual poker tracker numbers I dont believe what 90% of all NL players say anyway.

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01-09-2006, 10:30 PM

#18 (permalink)

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ten big blinds per 100 should be easily possible in NL100

if you assume 80 hands an hour quad tabling that's 320 hands an hour

so that's 32 dollars an hour

siknd

01-09-2006, 10:31 PM

#19 (permalink)

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my lifetime winrates at both 25 and 50 NL were just under 12 big blinds per hour per table .

100NL is clicking along at 5BB= $5 per hr per table. ill move up when i achieve my 25/50 benchmark.

'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '

Cocco_Bill

01-09-2006, 10:40 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by siknd

no one makes 30-50$/hr at 100 NL.

I hate people with your attitude. "If I can't do it then neither can anyone else".

I'll post some pokertracker data when I am done playing.

pokerfanatic

01-09-2006, 10:59 PM

#21 (permalink)

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First off this should have never turned into a NL v Limit thing this is a LIMIT topic, honestly I could give a shit less what you make at NL that wasn't the question!!!

It seems you are basically trying to get people to convert to NL because of the larger win rate possibilities... all that's going to do is turn it into a flaming war between which is bettor NL or Limit, it's frankly a childish debate... I tried to hint to you about your response was out of context for the question with my post and I’ll quote it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerFanatic

this is in a limit topic why are we talking NL?

That you weren’t answering the question and possibly could start a flaming war... This is not the place for the NL v Limit debate... that won’t answer rubixstreub question...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubixstreub

all you fellas that play 2/4 and 3/6 (full or short handed)

This to me says 2/4 and 3/6 betting rounds, plus it's in a limit topic in the first place where I don't think NL should be brought up... unless it's something like "I’m typically a NL player and have a limit question"...

I'm not trying to be an ass i just don't want to see a huge debate out of context about the win rates of NL v Limit... that wasn't the question at all...

So let’s try not to go that path cool?

euphoricism

01-09-2006, 11:12 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Im with Jeff on this. Its all about sample size - we limit dudes need a massive sample size to come to any conclusions - I can only imagine NL being way worse.

Further, I think the whole "comparing winrates between the two" is entirely bunk. They don't mean the same, they don't measure the same, and they aren't done by the same people. I think that sums up the definition for "useless statistic".

The only way I would believe someone when theyre saying they are "averaging" $X/hour, would be to take the number of hours theyve played over their lifetime, and devide by money won. Using the bb/100 as a basis for that is foolish.

I hate the bb/100 stat. Its. So. Fucking. Useless. And. People. Put. Too. Much. Stock. In. It.

Now, Its well known NL is a bit more profitable than LHE. What NL gains monetarily, us LHE guys gain in knowing we're better poker players than they are.

Ok I'm kidding. We know NL is more profitable - but some of us are of the impression that its not wholly more profitable, as the competition at the limit tables is insanely bad.

(whereas some people can "get" NL purely by accident with a few decent rules. We've all heard the stories of the "push or fold" players destroying games. Rule #1, raise preflop if you want to play. Rule #2: Dont chase gutshots, sets, etc. Those two alone can get you quite far in the NL world.)

We also know that the limit players tend to be a bit more risk-averse. We don't lose our stack with AA, but then we also don't gain stacks with AA.

NL is also slower, whereas we're playing 60 hands an hour, NL can average closer to 40. Limit also lends itself better to multitabling, particularly 6+ tables. Yes, some people in NL can multitable 6+ tables. But by far most cannot. The fact that a good number of FTR people can multitable is hardly representative of the population as a whole - FTR people are above average players, and by definition, theyre doing things the average player cannot.

So look, to take an "average" NL player, say playing $50 NL, and compare him with an "average" limit player, playing I dunno, $2/$4, is silly. The games are just too different to draw anything meaningful from the comparisson.

If you want to compare $100NL (with .5/1 blinds) and compare it to a $1/$2 limit game (same blinds!) - youre just being foolish.

So heres the real obvious answer to the question:
At $1000/$2000 LHE, someone is going to make more per hour than at $100NL. Good job, captain obvious!

You won't find a better answer. NL players are rarely accurate with their BB/100 numbers. The numbers peak and valley way too much to be meaningful. The same goes for limit - the sample sizes for both have to be HUGE. Poker is a variant game. Accept it. You will never be able to say you average $x/hour with any amount of certainty.

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euphoricism

01-09-2006, 11:17 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Fanatic, at its heart, the question was about "which is more profitable". IE, how does our limit winrate compare to that of the NL100 $30 figure.

We both know the only correct answer is, "STFU."

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Miffed22001

01-09-2006, 11:28 PM

#24 (permalink)

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100NL
25k hands win rate $10 per hr
so on 2 tables thats $20 per hr

3/6
25k hands win rate $12 per hour
so on two tables (sometimes 3!) $24 or $36

Now for sure im a better NL player than limit, so from my current stats (small sample i know) i can beat my win rate.

Dont know how sustainable these stats are, and im not the best multitabler ever but i like them.
I also agree that win rate is rather unimportant. If you continue to make money at certain limits and bonus whore etc i see no reaon to not just continue upwards.
I think id be happy at 5/10 limit and probably 200NL (maybe only 100NL) ATt hat point id build up the roll a lot befoe i considered higher stakes. These were targets for me 6 months ago and ill be happy to reach them.

rubixstreub

01-09-2006, 11:30 PM

#25 (permalink)

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As I was trying to fall asleep last night I contemplated deleting this post for fear the thread would devolve into an argument of Limit vs. NL. I only cited Ultimate George's win rate as an example of an FTR member coming out and stating what he makes an hour, knowing full well the NL game is more profitable (my comment about being behind NL was more out of sarcasm toward this well worn issue).

The plethora of hands required to obtain a reliable win rate is something that's been drilled into my head since day one at FTR- and it seems no amount of hands would be satisfactory for determining an exact win rate (except after someone quit poker or died).

I was only curious what people might be making per hour as it corresponds to their current database of hands recorded in PokerTracker, stakes played, and the amount of tables open at one time.

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rubixstreub

01-09-2006, 11:39 PM

#26 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Fanatic, at its heart, the question was about "which is more profitable". IE, how does our limit winrate compare to that of the NL100 $30 figure.

We both know the only correct answer is, "STFU."

I know which game is more profitable, but only so to the person who excels equally in both games. NL is not really my style, and beyond set camping to clear bonuses I don't play much. At heart, I was just curious what people might be bringing in per hour as I've never seen it discussed in those terms, an innocent enough question. I apologize that it has turned into a flame war between the different games... Honestly I didn't think NL people come in here, so I was hoping it wouldnt' be an issue.

I also thought telling someone to shut the fuck up for asking a question, no matter how trodden, was below us.

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pokerfanatic

01-10-2006, 01:02 AM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by rubixstreub

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Fanatic, at its heart, the question was about "which is more profitable". IE, how does our limit winrate compare to that of the NL100 $30 figure.

We both know the only correct answer is, "STFU."

whatever...

Cocco_Bill

01-10-2006, 06:14 AM

#28 (permalink)

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Here I have 45700 hands of bonus whoring at an average winrate of $33.2/h. A conservative estimate would be that I have cleared about $100 of bonus for every 1500 hands played in this database, that makes it approximately $20.7/h in bonus money. So I have earned about $53.7 for every hour spent playing poker. These hands are played on Prima network, Party poker, Empire poker and Pokerstars. I only play outside of the B2B network when I have a good bonus to clear. (There are a ton of bonuses on B2B)

I believe I have enjoyed my best winrate on B2B where I probably have played over 150k hands at 100NL and maybe another 40k hands at 200NL. The software was not compatible with pokertracker until recently and I have not imported a single hand from them.

ihategnomes

01-10-2006, 01:23 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Quote:

Its possible to multitable any level of NL...it just takes more skill than the limit game.

I strongly disagree. Read Poker Essays by Mason Malmuth, he disagrees too. So, why do you believe that NL is more difficult than limit?

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Cocco_Bill

01-10-2006, 02:23 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

Quote:

Its possible to multitable any level of NL...it just takes more skill than the limit game.

I strongly disagree. Read Poker Essays by Mason Malmuth, he disagrees too. So, why do you believe that NL is more difficult than limit?

I don't think its a more diffucult game than limit, just harder to to multitable at higher stakes. It can be done though. I know of at least one player who plays eight 6-max Party 1000NL tables profitably.

euphoricism

01-10-2006, 02:54 PM

#31 (permalink)

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CoccoBill:

In RE: Your posted PT stats - You have 147 hours of play in the DB, At 20 hours a week (slightly less than 3 hours a day), you've only got 7.5 weeks of play. About two months worth.

Small. Sample.

You simply can't make any conclusions based off of it, as it will fluctuate greatly.

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Cocco_Bill

01-10-2006, 03:26 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

As I said, I have a lot of hands on a non pokertracker compatible network. I know how many VIP points I have earned there and I know how many euros I have won. I get a VIP point for every hand raked 0.35c or more. From this info I estimate that my winrate is very likely higher than in the database i posted, over about 150k hands. I think I can indeed draw some conclusions regarding my winrate.

|~|ypermegachi

01-10-2006, 04:42 PM

#33 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

Quote:

Its possible to multitable any level of NL...it just takes more skill than the limit game.

I strongly disagree. Read Poker Essays by Mason Malmuth, he disagrees too. So, why do you believe that NL is more difficult than limit?

i was gonna attack you on this, until i realized you were talkin about the ease of multitabling, not ease of the game.

|~|ypermegachi

01-10-2006, 04:49 PM

#34 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

...whole bunch of stats...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...rt=&PHPSESSID=

wanna put your win rate in there and see what range you get with 95% confidence interval?

euphoricism

01-10-2006, 06:06 PM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

I think I can indeed draw some conclusions regarding my winrate.

Yes, you can draw one conclusion: "It will change."

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euphoricism

01-10-2006, 06:07 PM

#36 (permalink)

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Hyper didn't someone automate that and post a link somewhere?

Anyone have the link?

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Cocco_Bill

01-10-2006, 07:29 PM

#37 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

...whole bunch of stats...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...rt=&PHPSESSID=

wanna put your win rate in there and see what range you get with 95% confidence interval?

I didn't use your link, but using this formula BB=(2*SD)/SQRT(Hands/100), and my SD of 29BB/100 my winrate should be 5.84+-2.71BB/100 for a 95% confidence interval.

But as I said, since I have played so many more hands at these stakes I feel that I have a good idea of what I make in these games in the long term.

euphoricism

01-10-2006, 08:23 PM

#38 (permalink)

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The link Hyper posted will give you a CI in terms of $x/hour, rather than per 100 hands. I'd be interested in seeing it.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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Cocco_Bill

01-10-2006, 09:16 PM

#39 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

The link Hyper posted will give you a CI in terms of $x/hour, rather than per 100 hands. I'd be interested in seeing it.

Its a trivial conversion. I get $33,2+-$15.4/h for a 95% CI.

Cocco_Bill

01-10-2006, 09:59 PM

#40 (permalink)

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BTW, does anybody else want to post their stats for a sizeable database? I would be very interested in seeing whats typical for a good mid stakes limit player. Or perhaps someone could point me to a thread with such databases?

euphoricism

01-10-2006, 10:05 PM

#41 (permalink)

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Unfortunately when I first started I was a complete tard and I have seperate databases for each site and each level. My largest has 50k hands of 6max or so.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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|~|ypermegachi

01-10-2006, 10:22 PM

#42 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

to be honest with you, no one in limit talks about win rates. to us, it's a worthless statistic. over 50k hands we can't assume someone winning 3BB/100 is better than another person with 0.5BB/100.

although the following is a pretty humorous post about downswings, which include a lot of respected posters...
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&fpart=1&vc=1

SnoT_III

01-22-2006, 08:52 PM

#43 (permalink)

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why don't you guys stop attacking him. all he did was answer a question. i don't know why he cares if you guys believe what he is making online anyway.

euphoricism

01-22-2006, 09:32 PM

#44 (permalink)

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No one was attacking him, we just tend to be highly skeptical of "I make $x/hour" posts because well, they're not even close to accurate. Even his says he makes somewhere between $15-$45 an hour -- not exactly an accurate figure. It does say, however, he is a winning player.

Unrelated, snot, you're over in titusville huh? My sister lives over there, I'm in orlando. Have you been to the sun cruz casino that runs out of cocoa? I've been interested in going...

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SnoT_III

01-24-2006, 02:34 AM

#45 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

actually im up in gainesville right now but yes i used to live in titusville. If your sister went to THS i graduated from there in '02. I might know her, or you.

Sun Cruz is a lot of fun, but I only play no limit when I go on the boat or play craps. Their tournament set up is a little strange. Low chips, fast blinds, bad play. Hard to win.

euphoricism

01-24-2006, 04:16 AM

#46 (permalink)

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Posts: 3,610

we're from miami, my sister just graduated from UF at the end of fall. Do you by any chance know what stakes they have at the boats for limit? I guess a phone call would tell me, but its just easier to ask you :]

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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Ltrain

01-24-2006, 01:35 PM

#47 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

I'm in Miami, do you come back down here often?

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

euphoricism

01-24-2006, 03:59 PM

#48 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Not insanely often, but once in a while I do to see the grandparents and some friends. If I do, I'll make it a point to give ya call and hit up hardrock ;p

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

SnoT_III

01-24-2006, 05:11 PM

#49 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Titusville, Fl

Posts: 151

boat has 2/4 and 5/10 i believe.
you might want to try the new melbourne dog track for limit poker. they have a lot of different games, you can come and go when you want. they have 1/2, stud, hold 'em, omaha, pineapple.

storm75m

01-24-2006, 07:21 PM

#50 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston

Posts: 401

storm75m is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

The numbers peak and valley way too much to be meaningful.

I completely agree...

Last night playing 1/2 NL I only played for 45 minutes and made $245...
Not too long ago I played for 8 hours over 3 days and made a whopping $55...
Played for a week and lost $400...
Played for 30 minutes and made $300...
Played for 6 hours and made $750...

I remember once upon a time when I first started out, I wanted to figure out how much I could make per hour, it's completely meaningless now. I mean yeah, you could look at your PT database and see what it tells you about your BB/hr over 100K hands, but what does that really mean anyway?? All it would really tell you is if you're a winning player or not, which you should definitely already know. But besides that, knowing that you average $30 an hour has nothing to do with what will happen in any specific hour, day, week or month. Especially in NL. I don't play limit, but I also suspect that trying to compare win rates in limit vs. no limit is like comparing apples and oranges... completely different animal.

Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.

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