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Would I save a lot of money if I did this?

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The K1ngpin

12-30-2005, 03:51 AM Post subject: Would I save a lot of money if I did this?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 68

Just to throw out an example, say I am playing a limit game with a BBet of .10 . Hmmmm... A mediocre hand and only 10 cents to see the flop. I'll bet/call. Oops...didn't hit anything there, I think I'll fold.

Next hand. Somewhat decent cards, bot not great by any means. Only 10 cents to see it, I'll call.............

Even though the betting is relatively cheap, would it be better off if I just folded? Would that save me a good bit of money long term, or would it be better to call those small, simple blinds with hopes to hit a decent hand on the flop in which case I might be able to double up?

I ask this because that is how I have been playing as of late, a little more "loose" you can say. Normally I wouldn't call with only decent hands pre flop, but it's just so cheap. That is why I want it to be clarified if I'd just save more money in the long run by folding, because if I know for a fact it will, I will def. become more disciplined.

Thanks for the help friends.

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bearcats05

12-30-2005, 03:55 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

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Posts: 336

yes i think you are loosing money.
in no limit if you hit something you can double up. i dont think you are going to be able to double up easily in limit(i dont play limit but i still dont think it would be easy)
and with a big bet of .10 wouldnt it be .05 to see the flop?

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The K1ngpin

12-30-2005, 03:59 AM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 68

Yeah that's right. Basically would it be better to call that cheap ass .05 to see the flop the get the hell out, or better to just save that .05 and get the hell out with a bad hand immediately? (before the flop)

bearcats05

12-30-2005, 04:03 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

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Posts: 336

i dont think you should call the cheap .05 (especially if this is the limit you play and are bankrolled for)
even if you do hit you probably arent going to make very much

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The K1ngpin

12-30-2005, 04:04 AM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 68

Pot odds are not good either, btw. Had to throw that in.

Demiparadigm

12-30-2005, 04:07 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The K1ngpin

What's the most you think you can make when you hit your hand?
Now, what are the odds of you hitting a hand that will take down the pot?

Finally, if you think it were better to just call and see what you hit... don't you think there would be a lot more strategy posts to that nature as opposed to the many that say you should be folding all but premium cards preflop?

An interesting thing about poker is that only the best hand wins. there is no consolation prize for second.
This means that hands that are only marginally better than average are actually losers as far as their expected value.

A good winning limit player makes 3BB/100. each time you call with these marginal hands you are costing yourself a fraction of a bet. This couponding error makes it impossible to beat the game even playing a few more hands an hour.

Good Luck.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Demiparadigm

12-30-2005, 04:11 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The K1ngpin

Pot odds are not good either, btw. Had to throw that in.

Do you understand the concept of "pot odds" or do you just think that it means a big pot in relation to what you have to call?

You should NEVER call if you don't have pot odds to do so. The "pot odds" by definition are the odds the pot is laying you. This is useless unless you know the odds that your hand will improve to the BEST hand. Not just improve... but actually win.
If the chances of you winning the pot are less than the odds you are being layed it is NEVER correct to call.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

The K1ngpin

12-30-2005, 04:22 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The K1ngpin

Pot odds are not good either, btw. Had to throw that in.

Great posts.

I have 7-1 pot odds, 4-1 drawing odds.

Call?

bearcats05

12-30-2005, 04:29 AM

#9 (permalink)

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the whole point of what he wrote was NO dont call.

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Demiparadigm

12-30-2005, 04:39 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bearcats05

the whole point of what he wrote was NO dont call.

actually in his example, his odds of winning are better than his pot odds.

You have K

on the button.
There are 6BBs in the pot.
The board reads A

It is heads up on the turn, and your opponent bets. You know he only bets here with top pair or better.

What do you think you do here?

Now what if you held T

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

bearcats05

12-30-2005, 04:42 AM

#11 (permalink)

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nevermind i thought he was still talking about calling with shit preflop

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Demiparadigm

12-30-2005, 04:57 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bearcats05

nevermind i thought he was still talking about calling with shit preflop

He may be. But, I can't think of an example where you have "4 to 1 drawing odds " preflop.
Preflop we usually speak in terms of "equity" i.e. what % of the time you win the hand, and how that compares to the number of players in the hand.
Any time your equity is higher than (100/the number of players), it is correct to call, or often raise.
If it is lower, we need to look at current pot odds effective odds (how much it will cost to get to showdown) and implied odds (how much we will win from our opponents if we catch a good flop)
Many hands have "reverse implied odds" meaning simply, if we get any action on our hand, even if it is best at the time, we will often lose the pot anyway.
A good example may 7

on a T

flop.
Even if we have the best hand now, if multiple bets go in on the flop, we will often wind up paying a lot to show down second best.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

The K1ngpin

12-30-2005, 05:51 AM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Dec 2005

Posts: 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearcats05

the whole point of what he wrote was NO dont call.

actually in his example, his odds of winning are better than his pot odds.

You have K

on the button.
There are 6BBs in the pot.
The board reads A

It is heads up on the turn, and your opponent bets. You know he only bets here with top pair or better.

What do you think you do here?

Now what if you held T

I really appreciate your help. In the first example, you should call to see if you hit your flush on the river. You are getting great pot odds and thus they justify your draw. Now if you held T

you would probably be better off folding, correct? You can deduce he has a pair of Aces and that is all he needs to beat you. You are drawing dead.

Demiparadigm

12-30-2005, 06:02 AM

#14 (permalink)

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You aren't drawing dead.

any 9 gives you the nut straight.
but you should still fold.

We have seen 6/52 cards meaning there are 46 left in the deck.
4 of those give us a straight. (only 3 of these are the nuts.. the 9

makes a flush possible, but we don't think our lone opponent has a flush draw.)
so our odds to draw out are (42 bad cards) to (4 good cards)
or 10.5 to 1. Since we are only being layed 7 to 1 by the pot we should fold. (our implied odds are actually about 8.5 to 1, but that is beyond the scope)

In the flush example 9 cards give us the flush.

so our odds to draw are: 46 unknown - 9 "good" = 37 "bad" so-
37 to 9 or 4.1 to 1.
This is better than the 7 to 1 we are getting, so we should draw.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

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