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Rondavu
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04-07-2005, 04:07 PM
Post subject: Working behind a raise
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I'm sure this has been touched on before, but I'll ask anyway. What exact hands will you call for a raise? The biggest hole in my game currently is preflop. I know I hear the old "don't smooth call" thing over and over. Do you really always make a choice to re-raise or fold whatever you have based on who's raising and what you have?
Here's the thing. I was in a hand recently where I had KQs. Some guy raised before me, and I reraised. I thought to myself, if he has AK I'm screwed here, but I have to at least attempt to isolate and maybe he'll reraise screaming high pockets so I can see my flop and get out cheap.
Another hand was the old QJs. I raised first in, got reraised, and then another guy in turn reraised him. In total 5 people saw a capped preflop pot (The table wasn't consistently loose like this). I of course folded my likely dominated QJs, and then flopped a monster in a $100 eventual pot I would have taken if I stayed in. I thought to myself, why wouldn't I just take the plunge with so much money in the pot to see if I hit the flop hard? I mean even if it gets capped, I have a pretty good drawing hand here anyway.
What does everyone think of this? Do you really only see preflop raises with AK or better (assuming no maniacs)?
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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Dont raise QJs EP (i assume you are EP since you said first in and there were so many callers after that). I limp if I expect many callers and no raise. And I limp form late position or raise if there were many limpers (5-6).
But I think you should DEFINETELY call 2 more in the scenario you mention. You made a mistake raising first in but a capped pre-flop with so many players? You have to call with QJs.
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Chicago_Kid
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04-07-2005, 05:58 PM
Post subject: Re: Working behind a raise
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#3 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
What exact hands will you call for a raise? ... Here's the thing. I was in a hand recently where I had KQs. Some guy raised before me, and I reraised. I thought to myself, if he has AK I'm screwed here, but I have to at least attempt to isolate and maybe he'll reraise screaming high pockets so I can see my flop and get out cheap.
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This one is tough, I think, and can cost you money if you are not table aware. I think this example depends on how many and what kind of players are behind you, and what kind of player initially raised. In EP/MP with bad or tight players behind you and a bad player raising in front, I'd reraise to isolate. If the early raiser is tough, but several have called, I'd usually call and hope for a good flop. So either isolate or call and look for a flop depending on the table. Also, being suited is very important here on calling the bet..don't just call with KQo.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Another hand was the old QJs. I raised first in, got reraised, and then another guy in turn reraised him. In total 5 people saw a capped preflop pot (The table wasn't consistently loose like this). I of course folded my likely dominated QJs, and then flopped a monster in a $100 eventual pot I would have taken if I stayed in. I thought to myself, why wouldn't I just take the plunge with so much money in the pot to see if I hit the flop hard? I mean even if it gets capped, I have a pretty good drawing hand here anyway.
What does everyone think of this? Do you really only see preflop raises with AK or better (assuming no maniacs)?
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Another good one. I think you were right to get out. Sounds like you were out of position to a couple raisers, and QJ in these situations is so often dominated in a raised pot it's not even fun to discuss. Being suited is nice, but I think the likelihood of flopping a monster (nut flush/str8 draws, mainly) are far outweighed by you being dominated with a pair. Once you get this pair, it can be hard to get away from the hand. I would save myself the tough post-flop decision and fold away in an average game.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Nehmer
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04-07-2005, 06:26 PM
Post subject: Re: Working behind a raise
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#4 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
I'm sure this has been touched on before, but I'll ask anyway. What exact hands will you call for a raise? The biggest hole in my game currently is preflop. I know I hear the old "don't smooth call" thing over and over. Do you really always make a choice to re-raise or fold whatever you have based on who's raising and what you have?
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There are very few hands that you should be cold calling with. And the hands that you would cold call with, you should almost never be the first to cold call. For example, if somebody in early position raised and I was the next to act with KQs, I would fold, but if I was late position and two other people had cold called, that is an easy call for me. Other hands that I play the same way are AJs(iffy), AQo, and 99. TT-AA, AKs, AKo, AQs should all probably be 3-bet preflop(AQs kinda depends on the table and situation). All other hands should probably be folded except maybe 22-88 if an exceptionally large number of players have cold called before you.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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The thing that always bothers me is that if I'm cold calling, I have position on the raiser unless I'm a blind. How do you feel that factors in?
If the player who raised is post flop passive, and you have position on him, wouldn't cold calling him with a larger variety of hands be an advantage since he gives you better post flop reads? (i.e. he bets when he has it, checks when he don't)
On a slightly unrelated note, I see tons of passive people who don't raise the nuts when bet to. I see showdowns where a nut house is shown, and they just called it down like they were scared. I'm thinking "What are you doing slow playing till 6th street?"
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Krotalus
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76
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Do the stakes and the level of your competition influence your decisions at all?
I am currently playing the micro .05/.10 tables and some of the bets, calls and raises carry no rhyme or reason.
A lot of times if it checks around everyone is happy to see the flop. But if one person raises then it turns into a frenzy of raising. Is this a result of people not wanting to appear to have a weak hand. Half the time i have no clue who to respect and who is bluffing.
I have read Small Stakes Hold em and try to follow his guidelines until it gets to calling/reraising pre-flop. I have a tough time folding a hand such as KQs to one raise, and similarly have a tough time capping with it. If it gets checked around to me i will raise immediately, if it comes to me already raised i have no problem calling and seeing the flop.
I guess this is something that i will pick up as i go. I am just getting into the hand quizzes in Small Stakes Hold'em and once i finish them i plan to go through the book, maybe i just need some more time for the indoctrination to take affect. I am still really new at this.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I have the same problem Krotalus. I just can't let go of the notion that I might be folding the winning hand to a raise when I have KQ. Every time I have that notion, someone runs me down with AA or something and I'm like "No way!" as if I didn't craft my own coffin. Good hands come along so seldom that I wanna play KQ to a raise when I get it if I just went 20 hands without a piece. The devil on my shoulder whispers "Come on chump. What are gonna do camp on AA all day?" My ego then sends an electrical current to my call finger.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Cold calling bad. As a new player you're not losing much by never cold calling.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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You think you are folding a winner to much? Think of it like this. KQ you will flop something about 30% of the time. The other 70 or so you whiff. If you just CALL his raise he has control of the hand and will win your two bets 70% of the time. Lets say the other 30% you do flop a K or Q and you are dominated 10% of the time. You lose a lot more bets. So 20% of the time you hold the best hand and win it. So take a 10 hand sample
7 times lose 14sb (if you fold the flop to a bet)
1 time lose 8sb (2pre flop, 2 on the flop and 1bb on the turn and river)
2 times win..........do you think you was make up 22 sb's the times you win? not likely.
This is a VERY crude example just to show why cold calling is WRONG and it loses you money. The raise or fold play is for good reason. If you raise, you could steal a pot here and there and maybe show a profit. In a low limit game people get away with this because so many people are in pots that it makes up for this mistake somewhat. But the higher up you go, the more you are punished.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Very well stated trikflow77. The difference I fail to understand is this however...
1. They raise and you call with KQ
2. You raise with KQ and they call
Both instances you both have the same starting hands. Why is one superior to the other? Just because I don't flop my K or Q, does that necessarily mean I have to bow down to him because he was the original raiser? I think with KQ there will be times your dominated, and times your dominating. I agree that the former outweighs the latter, but given all that, why is it not fair to assume I should win at least 40% of the hands I'm in with this heads up? I mean whether I call a raise or get one called? In that train of thought, you could make a good profit cold calling or raising with careful postflop play.
I mean it's as if when you get KQ, you want no one else in the hand with anything significant, but all it takes is one person cold calling you to get freaked out. Who knows what they have? They could have anything trying to trap you. What happens when you raise in late position and the big blind calls you with KK? My answer, your screwed. So the thesis I present is that cold calling or being cold called are almost equal when you hold this hand. Given that your damned if you do damned if you don't, why not just cold call?
I man I suppose you could argue that you don't cold call because you know they have something good, where if they cold call you there's more of a chance they're weak. is that where you stand?
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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The reason your not going to win 40% of the hands is your the one CALLING and you wont win 40 % heads up. If you have the same hand and he is the one raising you are going to lose the hand a majority of the time. Are you going to call him down with king high to split a pot every once in a while, i dont think so. With AK which is played much more aggressively and has showdown value you only win about 55% of the time, and your the one raising and betting. Cold calling is losing play in limit poker period.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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It is different if you raise with kq and they call, you are letting them make the mistake. Position relative to the bettor is a very important factor in all of this also.
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